Xbox One complete 360

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Xbox One complete 360

Postby Drinnik » 19 Jun 2013, 13:46

Like what I did there?

Yeah, Microsoft have gone back on practically all the online guff they said about the Xbone. Was it due to E3 and the constant, constant mocking?

Probably.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Matt » 19 Jun 2013, 13:57

360 would imply they're still going the same way.

This was an XBox One-eighty.

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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby empath » 19 Jun 2013, 14:00

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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Metcarfre » 19 Jun 2013, 14:16

"Also, there will be *no* disc-based games. Have fun!"
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 19 Jun 2013, 14:38

Good to see Microsoft aren't completely deaf. Hopefully these changes actually take place. XBone will still have some hard competition given it's higher price, but at least this might help put it further in the running.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Metcarfre » 19 Jun 2013, 14:41

I would love it if this had been planned all along.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Darkobra » 19 Jun 2013, 14:45

Metcarfre wrote:"Also, there will be *no* disc-based games. Have fun!"


"That's a good idea! I can play my games that day without waiting on a delivery or going out! ... Wait a minute."

*Looks at my 500-600 physical game collection*

"They're gonna need a huge fucking hard drive..."
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby empath » 19 Jun 2013, 14:47

Nah, whaddya think all this talk of 'always online' and 'cloud storage' was about? Oh wait, we put the kibosh on that...oops... :oops:
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Metcarfre » 19 Jun 2013, 14:52

Darkobra wrote:
Metcarfre wrote:"Also, there will be *no* disc-based games. Have fun!"


"That's a good idea! I can play my games that day without waiting on a delivery or going out! ... Wait a minute."

*Looks at my 500-600 physical game collection*

"They're gonna need a huge fucking hard drive..."

"HERE, I HAVE A CLOOOUUUUUUDDD"
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Can't Wear Hats » 19 Jun 2013, 15:18

Good to see that Microsoft listens to feedback, if by "feedback" you mean "derision" and by "listens to" you mean "poops its pants".
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Matt
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Matt » 19 Jun 2013, 15:24

Cloud computing can fully still be a thing, as individual games can still require permanent Internet connections.

It's just the system that doesn't require it now.

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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Genghis Ares » 19 Jun 2013, 16:09

I'm going to vent a little here about this.

This really fucking sucks. Fucking whining cocksuckers on the internet and now we have a gimped system. That "family" sharing feature was going to be great, but fuck that, DRM was so "evil" how dare they protect their shit and make sure people don't cheat the system. I'm so fucking pissed right now.

I know a lot of the policies were unpopular, but you just needed to explain them better Microsoft. There were a lot of positive things that could have been. I know nothing was set in stone, but there was a lot of potential with the Xbox One, it could have changed things. I know people don't like "could" but it's better than "can't", which is what we have now.

I'm being completely serious when I say I was looking forward to Xbox One and now I'm not so sure. I still want to play the fuck out of Dead Rising 3, but now I'll have to get two copies instead of one.

Fuck used games, and fuck the goddamn internet.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 19 Jun 2013, 16:28

Matt wrote:Cloud computing can fully still be a thing, as individual games can still require permanent Internet connections.

It's just the system that doesn't require it now.

-m


The problem is that developers are likely going to shy away from doing so now. Such a massive backlash against it means that most developers will likely think that putting their game as always online will cause similar issues for them. When the developers could justify it as 'the system has to be online anyways, so we might as well use the technology,' that was one thing. But now that they'd be the one painted in a negative light, developers (or more likely publishers and similar financers) will lean away from always online games for none-MMO games.

Mind you, I don't know this for a fact. But I do see it having repercussions on the 'constantly evolving worlds' ideal. We'll see if it's enough to have a major impact. I think this was a positive step overall, but it will have an effect.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Vigafre » 19 Jun 2013, 20:14

Well, if a game is using cloud computing for anything, it's probably for multiplayer. I really don't think developers would use cloud stuff for anything single player. There's, like, no reason.

I see what you're saying, but this could be a boon for multiplayer games, so I don't see developers NOT doing that.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 19 Jun 2013, 20:57

Actually, there could be plenty of reasons for a single-player game to want to have that kind of cloud play.

For example, it could use the cloud for extra processing power, allowing for larger and fuller worlds for a single player to explore without forcing it onto multiple disks or using a huge amount of hard drive space. This would allow developers to build the worlds without having as much of a limitation on the actual size of it.

Or, as another example that I believe was actually presented at E3, there's the asynchronous-change that can occur. Games can use player feedback to adjust AI and make it more effective, allowing the player's modified AI to intermingle with other players' games and become more realistic. I believe this was proposed with the driving game that the XBone is going to have on release. The name eludes me though. But that could be not limited to just how other cars work. It could affect how companion AI works, enemy AI works, etc.

There's a lot of different things that single-player games could potentially do with the cloud. But now that aspect is going to seem more taboo. At least it will be at first I think. Who knows what will happen after release? I doubt people are just going to turn around on the 'always-online is bad' because some games make good use of it though.

Plus, the VAST majority of multiplayer games have a single-player component as well. Expecting the game to work without online one way while making online required still makes people think 'This game MUST be online' when they first see it. I would think it also creates a good deal more work, since the developer has to develop the game in a way that allows it to function with both always-connected internet as well as none-connected situations and switch between them whenever the situation changes. And then there's offline multiplayer for lans and split-screen.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Vigafre » 19 Jun 2013, 23:03

I'm not saying it's completely useless for any kind of single player (even though I totally did). I was more talking about games with no need for online at all, like Skyrim. Sure, you could have additional processor power, but then you end up with situations where your Internet blinks and now what are you gonna do. With multiplayer, you accept that because it has to be online. With single player, you don't want those kind of restrictions.

It's different in cases like Diablo 3 and SimCity where they tried to use online for structural purposes. I'm strictly talking about games with not a morsel of online. If the game was already planned to have online features, sure why not. The industry might be heading that way anyway so my statements might be worthless.

And you're thinking of Forza. And in that game, as well as most racing games, the online is SUPER important. Most people don't buy racing games to just play by themselves, at least to my knowledge.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 19 Jun 2013, 23:30

Vigafre wrote:With single player, you don't want those kind of restrictions.


You don't want those kinds of restrictions. I'd be fine with having internet access be required if it meant a larger, more fleshed out world in the case of Skyrim. Or a world that constantly changes not only from what you do, but from what others do as well.

Imagine, for example, a game similar to Skyrim with a great deal more content, with a number more in-depth questions and NPCs. A larger, more vibrant world that could expand as the developers see fit to add more to it. Right now, games are restricted by what they can get on the disk and size limits for download. By allowing the cloud to do the extra processing or hold the extra information, the developers could be given more freedom. Though that developer freedom does come at a cost.

You're thinking of games as they are now. There are games designed without a morsel of online, and I'm guessing there will always be games like that. I'm not saying that we go back and make all games require online. But there are ways for any type of game to justify having a consistent online connection. To say that a game wouldn't need a constant connection for anything but multiplayer is fairly narrow focused. Developers could use such a connection to do a lot of different things. And cutting that off as an option because it'll hurt sales will hurt things in the long run I think.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Vigafre » 19 Jun 2013, 23:42

Woah woah woah, don't get me wrong. I'm not against those options. I'm not bothered by them at all, since my Internet connection is fine. I was thinking in a more general sense. Single player games reliant on an online connection can be sketchy as hell, with hiccups, disconnects, or outages. There are already enough problems with DRM messing up; I can only imagine how people will feel once the cloud messes up.

Anyway, I can see cloud processing more as an option, where you can use the cloud for better processing power, but it isn't required. At least not right now. It could be used as polish, like ambient occlusion is right now. Or PhysX.

And honestly, processing power right now is pretty damn good. Cloud processing can be an additional improvement, but it shouldn't be required just quite yet.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby AdmiralMemo » 19 Jun 2013, 23:48

Well, then, can't we just have games that aren't reliant on an online connection, but if they are connected, they become better?

"Here's your game to play. Have fun. If you would like better graphics, updates, etc., please connect to the Internet."
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby JayBlanc » 20 Jun 2013, 01:14

I'm bored with cloud computing already, can't we move onto the next indistinctly defined technology of questionable use... unicorn-farts.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby JackSlack » 20 Jun 2013, 02:32

So, the Xbox One now:

  • Won't segment the EU in bizarre ways
  • Can launch in more than just 21 countries, with no onerous restrictions
  • Can handle imports
  • Allows for the used game market
  • Will work for the military
  • Will work for anyone who, for whatever reason (eg. college students whose campus net connection won't allow the check, etc.) don't have internet connections on hand. Yes yes, I know: Small enough your phone can do it. Still.

This is a huge win. It really is. Sorry, Genghis, but the number of people who were being locked out in various ways by the Xbox 360 was pretty awful, and the sheer nastiness of the anti-consumer measures at play was worse.

That said, here's the unfortunate truth underlying it all: The real Xbox One issue is the one which still hasn't really been addressed — Just how determined they are to make the Xbox One a "media device" rather than a games device. The numbers were pretty clear; the PS3 trounced the Xbox 360 when it came to being used for non-gaming media. Hell, the Wii beat the crap out of both of them for streaming video. The Wii! And it's that which was most on Microsoft's mind... and no doubt is likewise on Sony's still.

The gaming industry is broken, and I guess here is the one place I will kind of agree with Genghis: Something's gotta change. What has to change though, to my mind, isn't the used game market. Or if it does, it should be eliminated organically rather than by technological straightjacket: Find ways to make used games an unattractive proposition. No, my thoughts that what needs to change is this:

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(Source)

This is ultimately it. This is the problem. As that article observes:

As previously stated, the launch price for video games has been around $50 for many years, yet the cost of game development has risen. This has caused some game developers to be weary of taking big chances, simply because it might bankrupt them if they fail. Electronic Arts gets a lot of criticism for releasing sequel after sequel, but the economics of game development makes this a wise move. If you knew you could make another football game that would sell millions guaranteed, wouldn’t you do it?


Something's gotta give. Used games were always a scapegoat, re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The true culprit in the room is that simple equation. (Profit to publisher per unit) × (Units sold) > (Cost of development). C right now is ridiculously astronomical, and since they aren't willing to raise prices and thus P, the only hope is to continually hope to get U higher and higher. End result: Tomb Raider is the best selling game of the series, and is disappointing anyway.

C has to come down. It has to come down a lot.

That doesn't mean blockbuster, big price games can't happen every so often. Hollywood manages to pull off massive budget films and make squids off them. But gaming right now seems to be trying that for every damn game. We need fewer Avatars, more Fast and the Furiouses in gaming. That's the real issue, and if nothing else, I hope this whole mess may finally cause some people in the industry to think about that more seriously.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 20 Jun 2013, 11:29

Vigafre wrote:Woah woah woah, don't get me wrong. I'm not against those options. I'm not bothered by them at all, since my Internet connection is fine. I was thinking in a more general sense. Single player games reliant on an online connection can be sketchy as hell, with hiccups, disconnects, or outages. There are already enough problems with DRM messing up; I can only imagine how people will feel once the cloud messes up.

Anyway, I can see cloud processing more as an option, where you can use the cloud for better processing power, but it isn't required. At least not right now. It could be used as polish, like ambient occlusion is right now. Or PhysX.

And honestly, processing power right now is pretty damn good. Cloud processing can be an additional improvement, but it shouldn't be required just quite yet.


The problem without having it be required is how do you determine what gets cut out if people aren't using it?

You could cut something like ambient occlusion. But doing so means you have to make sure the game is able to actually sense if it's offline, have access to all of the game files necessary to run without whatever is on the cloud, etc. You have to design the game from both a mechanical and graphical perspective to be able to work with and without online access and be able to switch seamlessly between them every time the internet hiccups.

I'm not a programmer, but that seems like it's very difficult. Which leads to a higher development cost, which makes it so the game has to sell more copies. Except there are still going to be a not-insignificant number of people who see that it 'requires online for a better experience' and turn away.

Not only that, but there are people who are going to be pissed that you took out that feature too if they don't have online. People care about different things. So it's easy to look at something and say 'well, if they don't have online, we'll just take away some polish.' But then you have all the people who do care about polish in an uproar because now they are the ones who have to have online in order to get the full experience.

I mentioned Forza, and you mentioned that because it's a racing game the online is super important (which I disagree with but is another discussion entirely). I didn't mean to say that specific game was the big 'single-player example.' I was saying that that has elements that could be used in other games with a single player focus.

As I've said before, I don't know any of this for a fact. I doubt anyone does right now. These are just things that I'm guessing are accurate.

JackSlack wrote:since they aren't willing to raise prices and thus P


I'm sure they'd be fine with raising the prices. The problem is that doing so would have a large consumer backlash, and not just from hardcore gamers this time. $60 is now considered the norm, and it'll be hard to break people away from that standard, especially to go higher. I remember hearing about a study (that I don't have time to find) that talked about how a game releasing for lower than $60 on consoles had negative associations, as did a game selling for higher. I'm guessing that this is talking about the US market, and that it's discussing console games, but I'm not sure because I can't find it.

But I do agree that something does need to change. The problem is that doing anything to reduce costs will have some kind of negative impact. Lower graphics? Some people won't buy it now. Worse AI? Ditto. Smaller world? Well that loses replay value, so why don't I just buy/play Skyrim? The main solution I see is stepping away from realism and moving towards stylized gaming more. People are more willing to forgive something not looking amazing if it's stylized, while they will notice if it's meant to look like real life.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Metcarfre » 20 Jun 2013, 11:46

JackSlack wrote:The numbers were pretty clear; the PS3 trounced the Xbox 360 when it came to being used for non-gaming media. Hell, the Wii beat the crap out of both of them for streaming video.

These numbers... don't really mean anything. I mean, they mean that the average user of an XBox uses their console more for gaming (particularly online) than other platforms, but that doesn't really indicate that it's worse at that function. Unless that wasn't your point?

As for the development cost issue... Games are going to cost more because they're just more complex. That's the nature of the beast (Moore's law & etc.). Now, you can create a simpler, cheaper game, but it's not going to take advantage of the abilities of the system.

The answer, of course, is an online marketplace that supports many different price points; classic games for a few dollars, cheap simple new games for a bit more, ambitious but limited games for a bit more, and "AAA" titles for the standard $60. Of course, this would require an internet connection...
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby JackSlack » 20 Jun 2013, 11:46

Oh, no question. They're unwilling to raise prices for solid reasons.

And as far as I'm concerned? Cut back on graphics. There's plenty of evidence the current race for the best graphics is overblown; as many people point out the top selling MMO and shooter on the market both have very pedestrian graphics engines.
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Re: Xbox One complete 360

Postby Kapol » 20 Jun 2013, 11:54

Well, for WoW, I think one of the reasons why it's fine having worse graphics are multiple. It's set in a fantasy world, it's a very old game at this point, and it's a type of game where the graphics matter much less than the player-base does. Of course, it has been hurting as of late in terms of subscribers from what I've been hearing.

For CoD, it's engine might not be the best, but I feel it's graphics are nothing to scoff at. And people are likely going to expect more from them once the next generation hits (as well as expecting more from just about everything).

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