Xbox live adminstration - Homophobes?

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Yukikaze
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Postby Yukikaze » 02 Mar 2009, 08:00

Yep, basically that.
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Postby Tank_girl » 02 Mar 2009, 11:24

Yukikaze wrote:
TheRocketSiobhan wrote:
Yukikaze wrote:Man, from that rant one would think it was Tank Girl who got banned.


Yes, Tank Girl is a RAGING LESBO, just because she isn't as ignorant as you.

No, just that she seems a bit angry about something that I'm fairly sure happened to someone who isn't her. Actually, that logic is dubious at best. "Tank Girl is angry" = "Tank Girl is a lesbian?" What?



Although I may not be a Lesbian, I am Bi sexual. So if i take this kinda thing to heart a little more then the average person its because i have spent a lot of my time invested in the GLBT community. It is something that is very important to me and something i care a lot about.

So please dont take my mentioning this as a cry for attention. But mearly me just explaining why i would take something that happened to some one else so personally. It happened to some one in my community. And that means something. At least to me.
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Postby Yukikaze » 02 Mar 2009, 12:04

While that may explain the large, angry, conclusion-jumping rant, it does not excuse it. A lot of those quotes were taken and argued out of context.
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Postby Homsar » 02 Mar 2009, 14:48

Tank_girl wrote:GLBT

Aaaaaaahhhh! That sounds like my kind of sandwich, forsooth!
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Yukikaze
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Postby Yukikaze » 02 Mar 2009, 14:59

"sandwich" is but one of the things the GBLT makes. Not sure you'd want to eat it, though.

Entirely off-topic.
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Postby TheRocket » 02 Mar 2009, 16:19

I will admit after reading the posts after mine, maybe I took it the wrong way. I thought you were talking about the girl simple having it in her profile that she is a lesbian, (which, I don't think is a cry for attention, but simply someone who is proud of who they are and the community they rep) and not about people running into a game and screaming "IM GAY" (maybe I missed that part and if so I apologize. )

Having it in your profile, is like all the people I've seen that have "Jamacia REPRESENT" Or "Proud South African". It's no more harmless or a cry for attention. And I thought you were saying that someone simply stating that they are a lesbian, is just an excuse for male attention. Which kind of saddens me that you would think that.

Yes, there are lots of girls who do that, for whatever reasons... but that doesn't mean that anyone who states that they are a lesbian, is questing for male peen.
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Postby Kdz » 02 Mar 2009, 19:00

I personally wouldn't care, but I completely understand why Microsoft did what they did, and I'm not that upset. Matt had the right attitude, I think.

Their space, their rules.
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Postby DmitriW » 02 Mar 2009, 19:02

TheRocketSiobhan wrote:questing for male peen.


As opposed to peen of the female variety? ;)
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Postby Master Gunner » 02 Mar 2009, 19:09

DmitriW wrote:
TheRocketSiobhan wrote:questing for male peen.


As opposed to peen of the female variety? ;)


You just had to go there, didn't you? Well let me introduce you to a little doohicky that should be helpful in this matter, you may have heard of it, it's called the internet.


...what I'm trying to get at here is: depending on your definitions of "female" and "peen", quite possibly yes.
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Postby Nevrmore » 02 Mar 2009, 19:10

I've seen some that literally reach up to the stars.
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Postby Annchan » 02 Mar 2009, 19:32

Dudes, your profile gets flagged in the game way with Lesbian and Gay as it does for Boobs.
This is not a big deal
She was not banned, it was suspended until she changes her profile.
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Postby TheRocket » 03 Mar 2009, 10:21

Bewbz ^.^
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Postby Sir_Substance » 03 Mar 2009, 13:26

Matt wrote:Franly, I think Richard Gaywood has a way better case here, since that's his actual name.


robert fagot probably would have similar concerns.
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Postby empath » 03 Mar 2009, 14:31

Yeah, I know I'm coming in late, but it's time for two coppers.

tl;dr version (in advance): Matt+1

Yeah, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, etc. is great. But as Mr. Wiggins already stated: they end the moment you step inside someone's home (or in this case, start using M$'s XBL service). And YES, the limitations outlined in XBL's Terms of Service are fully enforceable because 1) you have to actively take an action that is understood to mean "I agree to abide by these conditions" upon signup, AND b) I'm willing to wager - without looking at it - that the XBL ToS includes, somewhere, a statement along the lines of:

boilerplate EULA-speke wrote:Your continued use of the Service constitutes your agreement with these Terms.


Fair? Not really. Companies get away with tons of morally disreputable things, like cruel late fees, service charges and 'just because we feel like it' charges because "you agreed to them".

Do I like it? Read the stuff in the paragraph immediately preceding this and think a little harder about it.

Is it legal? Yep. Sorry. I don't like it either, but there you go. M$'s house, your express agreement with their rules before entering. *shrug*


Anyway, Matt? Please tell me you've got some interest in studying/practising law at some point in your life; you have a very succinct, clear and compelling way of explaining this sort of thing, and are definitely pragmatic enough (you also managed to make your personal views on this issue clear, despite your stand) for the work. I'd love to see briefs or petitions penned by your hand at some point.
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Postby Matt » 03 Mar 2009, 14:40

I've thought about it, like, really, seriously thought about it, but I don't think I could bring myself to stuff my head in a book long enough to get the law degree, and clerk my way into a law firm.

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Postby Telaril » 03 Mar 2009, 15:12

Oh, it's definitely legal (at least in most places), however, there are a few things to think about.

If you have a TOS that disagrees with some federal statute, the TOS is invalid, not the statute. So if there was a non-discrimination-based-on-sexual-orientation statute applicable in this, she might have a suit, no matter what the TOS says. (I don't think there is one, though Washington State does have some of the better equal rights laws for sexual orientation in the country).

There's a good example of this on the Mini Cooper website. By agreeing to their sites EULA you agree to "name you first born either Mini or Cooper." Of course this is a joke, 'cause mandating such a thing would be massively illegal. So you can't just write whatever the heck you want into a TOS and have it work, even if people click on it.

And finally, just 'caue it's legal doesn't mean we can't get upset about it. That is the power of the consumer... to decide whether to pay money for a good or service based on the ethics of the company producing things. I'm not saying you're morally obligated to stop paying for XBL because of this, but just because it's legal doesn't mean it's not something to think about.

Now the real question here is this: Is what XBL is doing massively different than what other companies do? I actually used to work in customer service for an online gaming company and I had to change a lot of names that had "sechz" and "bishes" and other poorly-spelled tricks to get around the auto-filter.

If we were talking about a username here, I'd be much more likely to take the side of the company. A username is seen by everyone, and is very simple. I don't think that the Gaywood guy has any more point than this woman does. People claiming that their real name is "luvzbich" are a dime a dozen, and if companies were forced to take "but that's my real name" claims seriously, you'd end up spending hundreds of hours debunking fake claims for every real one.

The fact that it's in a profile is what makes the situation much stickier for me. I somehow feel that providing a profile where someone can write anything requires... a substantially gentler moderation hand than simple usernames do. I sort of understand MS's point, in that "lesbian" is a controversial word and might often be misused. But I think the word itself is much less offensive than "bewbs" or whatever other word you can bring up that's been disallowed. I guess the question is ultimately whether we should blame society for being ignorant and stupid or Microsoft for pandering. Heh.
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Matt
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Postby Matt » 03 Mar 2009, 15:25

It's not discrimination because they take the same stance on all statements of sexual preference.

it's also not discrimination because they aren't disallowing her access to the service based on her sexual orientation.

Microsoft has made it pretty clear they don't care if you like men, women, ?, other, dogs, toys, or inflatable love sheep. All they care about is that you keep that information to yourself. As long as you do, you're golden!

This isn't a discrimination case, it's a freedom of speech case, and given you're in their house, they have all the right in the universe to tell you to "stfu or gtfo".

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Postby Nevrmore » 03 Mar 2009, 15:33

Matt wrote:Microsoft has made it pretty clear they don't care if you like men, women, ?, other, dogs, toys, or inflatable love sheep.

Hmm...You're leaving out a few key demographics. The necrophiliacs might have a case, here.
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Postby Sir_Substance » 03 Mar 2009, 15:38

Telaril wrote:And finally, just 'caue it's legal doesn't mean we can't get upset about it. That is the power of the consumer... to decide whether to pay money for a good or service based on the ethics of the company producing things. I'm not saying you're morally obligated to stop paying for XBL because of this, but just because it's legal doesn't mean it's not something to think about.


yes, but dont pick fights that you cant win.

there are some companies that are small enough that customers do have the power to threaten them like that.

i assure you, microsoft is not one of them. your customer power with them is precisely zilch. if everyone on xbox live were to say "fuck you MS" and cancel their subs, the financial wing would just tick a few boxes on a form and submit a report on the long term profitability of XBL, and MS would divert its attentions perhaps to the business world instead, or maybe spend a bit more time making windows 7 good (that would be nice!).

sure, their share price might drop a bit for a while, but they are too big. they dont have any reason to care if a bunch of gamers have a fat cry over a naming system. they threw millions, of not billions of dollars into the first xbox system, which more or less constituted a black hole into while money went, never to return. they lost what anyone else would call an absolute fortune, just to get their foot in the door of the console market. i assure you, they dont care about your personal opinion of them, and the loss of your subscription fee might not even be noticed.
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Telaril
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Postby Telaril » 03 Mar 2009, 16:12

Matt wrote:Microsoft has made it pretty clear they don't care if you like men, women, ?, other, dogs, toys, or inflatable love sheep. All they care about is that you keep that information to yourself. As long as you do, you're golden!

This isn't a discrimination case, it's a freedom of speech case, and given you're in their house, they have all the right in the universe to tell you to "stfu or gtfo".


Where has Microsoft made this clear? I'm just curious, I hadn't heard that there was any official statement to this effect and wouldn't know where to begin to look. As far as I know, you can have the word straight in an XBL profile without it getting auto-banned. Am I wrong?
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Postby Matt » 03 Mar 2009, 16:36

microsoft has made several official statements on the topic so far, but the gist of them all is that any identification of sexual orientation in a gamertag or profile will result in account suspension until the content is removed by the user.

the only potentially discriminatory aspect of this is that the overwhelming majority of this content has to be reported by a user before action is taken, and people tend to get more uppity about bing gay than straight. They're morons for doing so, but such is life. It's not all automated.

Additionally, no one was banned, and the term is being thrown around WAY too freely - it's sensationalized the whole situation.

The gamer in question had her account temporarily suspended, and was told it would be restored as soon as she removed the statement identifying her as a lesbian. They didn't tell her she couldn't play, they just told her that if she was going to play she had to take her sexuality out of her profile.

They censored her, they didn't discriminate against her.

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Telaril
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Postby Telaril » 03 Mar 2009, 17:08

That's very interesting.

I think it'd be cool to test how actually true this is... by putting some things in profiles, having someone else appeal them and making sure they all get changed. Put "I'm straight" in a profile and get it appealed, put "I'm a girl who likes girls" versus "I'm a girl who likes boys" in, appeal both, etc.

This would take a lot more resources than I have available, so I'll have to take them for their word until someone provides evidence. Thanks for the info, though.
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Postby Nevrmore » 03 Mar 2009, 17:21

The way you suggest it, though, is pretty blatantly obvious. If I worked in whatever moderating department oversees Xbox Live I'd probably warn/ban/whatever it is they do on there the account for trying to push the system
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Postby Master Gunner » 03 Mar 2009, 17:25

If you have a dozen or so people in on it, spread it out enough, and factor in the amount of people that work in the department, I highly doubt they'd notice (especially since you wouldn't have the same person being targeted every time).
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Postby tak197 » 03 Mar 2009, 18:38

Matt wrote:I've thought about it, like, really, seriously thought about it, but I don't think I could bring myself to stuff my head in a book long enough to get the law degree, and clerk my way into a law firm.

-m


Though you probably have studied some business law in your time, right?
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