This thread is so gay

[JustAName]

Man I didn't need to see that. I've never faced direct antagonism for being bi, but I'm always terrified of it happening. Bluh.

[Arclight_Dynamo]

Oh, geez, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to make anyone feel bad.

[JustAName]

Nonono, it's totally okay. It's just another unfortunate reality thing.

[Arclight_Dynamo]

Fayili:

It really is. Thanks. I am still sorry for spreading it around a bit, though. That's the problem with discussing troubling things; you need to actually point people to them before you can discuss them. Not ideal.

Psyclone:

You know, I don't think you're far off at all. It's the feeling of exclusion from a space and community that you thought would be inclusive of you that I find bothersome about this. Not being an ace, I'm not going to pretend to speak for your experiences, but from what I've read in this thread and the ace thread, as well as more broadly, I do get the sense that there are similarities, at least. That's deeply shitty and not okay, too.

Do keep in mind that I'm very, very new to even knowing that I'm not straight, though. I don't really have any contact with the broader LGBTQ community - this thread is really my first contact with it. At this point, all I have to go on about what the community is like is what I've read on the internet. And I'm apprehensive about branching out further. So to hear that your impression is that the community is generally supportive and inclusive is very helpful. Thanks for that.

[CamelKnackRambleHort]

Thanks. I mean... I knew biphobia existed in the LGBT community. I guess this tweet just hit me with it in a bad way, I suppose. Maybe I thought it wouldn't be so... vitriolic? Seems there's a lot of hostility I wasn't expecting.

I dunno... maybe it's my anxiety disorder speaking, but I feel that, if I were to go to pride, I'd always have in the back of my mind that I'm not actually welcome there. I'd be, at best, tolerated. Because it's apparently not for me.

It's great that I wouldn't stick out (Ottawa is big enough for that), but there would still be the potential for a hostile reaction if I were to say "Hey. I'm bi."

Guess I was expecting that not to be true at a pride event.

I dunno... I think I'm just babbling here. But this really got under my skin.

Yeah, it's a harsh lesson when you find this out. There is a lot of hate towards trans people from within the LGBT community, so I have some idea of what you are feeling.

The reality is that a certain amount of people just suck. Being part of a group that is discriminated against sometimes teaches them to not suck, sometimes it just makes them worse as they pass on the abuse to others.

My experience is you will generally be safe from discrimination in larger events or more official organizations. These people are in the minority and most LGBT people wont let them get away with it.

Smaller groups or individuals tend to be the real problem, you never quite know until you give it a shot. Again, they are in the minority so usually you will be fine and violence is exceptionally rare in these cases (I have never heard of a case myself, but I wont say it never happens.) Don't let it stop you making friends, you will be better off with some support.

Also, don't worry about coming on here and babbling as you put it. I understand, sometimes you just need to vent. I for one am happy to help.

[Arclight_Dynamo]

Well, thank you - I've found babbling here has helped. Everyone's wonderful.

Good advice about large events vs. small groups, too. I'd bet good money there's even specific bi groups at my local pride event. Seems those would be a good bet for avoiding biphobia. And, as you say, most people are cool. It's just the uncertainty that gets to me...

I mean, yeah, some people suck. I guess I was surprised by the level or intensity of the suck coming out of the LGBTQ corner. Caught me off guard.

Also, and this is an odd one, until about a year-and-a-half ago, as far as I knew, I was straight. Which means I've enjoyed the privilege of being straight my entire life until now. Suddenly finding that privilege stripped away, suddenly finding myself as a member of the LGBTQ community, is... weird. Scary. I'm not used to it, I guess, and it's a hell of an adjustment.

More than that... I kind of feel I don't belong, since I've not had to put up with shit, really, my entire life. Maybe I'm some kind of queer imposter? That's a hell of a weird mental place to be in.

So this thing popping up saying that a portion of the LGBTQ community agrees with my insecurities that I don't belong? It hits a nerve.

[CamelKnackRambleHort]

I can relate to that to some extent. I knew was trans for quite some time before coming out (which was fairly recent for me, you might remember my post around that time) but I kept it buried deep, I was determined to never come out. Didn't work out so well, caused a lot of problems. But the point is I never even let myself think of myself as trans, even after I was sure, kind of sectioning off that part of myself and keeping it separate. It was a big mental adjustment to change how I think from "them" to "us". I was torn up and uncertain about it for a good long while, and I would have days where I would practically be in a panic over it.

It gets better though. You've been out for what, two weeks now? I can promise the uncertainty and confusion gets better. And I can tell you that you do belong. We are defined by who we are and how we express who we are, not by how others have tried to keep us down.

But it does really help to have people you can count on. I have a good friend who came out to me at the same time I came out to her, so we have both been supporting each other. Besides that we both have several common friends we knew we could count on, and I have my wonderful wife who has been amazingly supportive from the moment I came out to her. If you can find people to lean on to get you through hard times it is much better.

[Psyclone]

More than that... I kind of feel I don't belong, since I've not had to put up with shit, really, my entire life. Maybe I'm some kind of queer imposter? That's a hell of a weird mental place to be in.

I can for sure say that you're not an impostor. There is a certain shared trauma in the lgbtq community, but that's not all we are. I remember when marriage equality happened in the US and there were a bunch of articles written by older gay men complaining about how easy queer kids have it these days and bemoaning the fact that there isn't that shared 'us against the world' feeling anymore, and that's bullshit. In some ways we do have each other's backs because we need to, but in a lot of ways it's just solidarity and having something to identify with and people who share your experiences to talk to.

And there are people who come out in their fifties, so you're definitely not a latecomer!

[Arclight_Dynamo]

Thank you both - this is just growing pains, I guess. It really is a matter of moving from "them" to "us," and that's disorienting. Especially seeing that some of "us" consider me a "them," if that makes sense.

I suppose a big part of it is that I don't feel at all different from when I considered myself to be 100%, unequivocally straight. So if that's what being straight feels like, and I still feel that way... maybe I'm a fraud, or doing "not being straight" wrong somehow.

Rationally, I get that that's ludicrous, but I am, in many ways, a deeply insecure person who can't listen to his rational brain. I'll get over it, I'm sure - talking about it certainly helps.

[Psyclone]

It's a huge mental shift! But it'll get easier, and yeah, you have us.

[Mothra Fighter]

Arclight_Dynamo,

I saw screenshots of that same Tumblr post shared around too. It’s awful and bigoted. Even if those comments represent only a minority of people on Tumblr or other social networks, they’re loud and hurtful. Moreover, it’s not unheard of for others to exploit hate, fear, or discomfort about the "BTQIA" part of "GLBTQIA".

People want a simple either/or binary to fit everyone into, but reality tends to be more complicated than that. Someone telling a bisexual person that they can’t figure out which hetero or homo category to put them into merely expresses their own stubborn ignorance. (To be fair, there is also a desire to see gay and lesbian representation in media that's as diverse as heterosexual representation. So some people hope that a celebrity is "one of them", which is not the same thing as being motivated by hate. But I'm responding specifically to that Tumblr screen grab and similar "bisexuality is not real" beliefs you've encountered.) Knowing this doesn't necessarily makes dealing with such opinions any easier, especially in person. But do know that such "you're just confused" thoughts are a reflection of the other person's poor understanding of human sexuality. There’s nothing deceitful or inauthentic about you for being bi.

In contrast to that shitty Tumblr, there are, thankfully, many people who try to challenge biphobia or biphobic thinking.

Lindsay Ellis wrote a lovely piece about coming to terms with her bisexual identity and appreciating her friend’s asexual one. Similar to Ellis' blog are these two essays, both by writers who talk openly about accepting their bisexuality and their struggles with reductive stereotyping.

It may also help to know that there are Tumblr users who share your and others’ concerns about biphobia. Some deal with it by just straight up (excuse the phrasing) mocking it.

The point of all this link sharing is that while it's easy to focus on the hate out there, there's also empathy and support to be found too. Which you do know, so I hope the link sharing isn't coming off as patronizing. And, if nothing else, I highly recommend those essays by Ellis and the other two.

Lastly, I'd also suggest continuing to seek out people who're sympathetic, as you've done in this thread, while distancing yourself from the examples of hate. As Warren Ellis said in one of his weekly newsletters: “Until then, you know the drill -- stand outdoors for five minutes and just take in the view, lock the toxic and the vampiric out of your life, and remember to pour bleach over everything if you have to murder someone.” Locking out the toxic and vampiric is the relevant part. Although maybe the bleach thing will come in handy oh my god am i talking out loud right now? *drops a smoke bomb and flees*

[Arclight_Dynamo]

Thanks for that, Mothra Fighter - it helped enormously.

One interesting thing that stood out for me was the notion that it isn't straight privilege if it is, in fact, bi erasure. That rather gets to the heart of the Tumblr thing that bothered me so much. Those commenters were basically complaining that bi people don't really belong since they can "pass" as straight and so enjoy straight privilege.

But no. Because it's not straight privilege if it's bi erasure. And, boy, is it ever bi erasure.

Something else that's been bothering me a little bit that I might as well bring up now... I identify as bisexual. I don't identify as pansexual. No idea why - "bi" just seems to fit my mental model of me better. But I'm aware that a lot of people understand "bi" to mean "attracted to two genders" (I understand it to mean "attracted to at least two genders"). My concern is that identifying as bi might implicitly endorse the view that there are only two genders, or that only two genders are valid. Which I don't actually think. And I have absolutely no desire to be shitty toward trans, genderqueer, or genderfluid individuals.

So there's my conundrum: is the sexuality that I genuinely, truly identify as, because it fits me best and I'm the most comfortable with it, implicitly trans/etc.-phobic? Or is that supposed implicit phobic nature actually a biphobic misunderstanding of that sexuality?

Do I continue to identify as bi, and potentially hurt other people? Do I start identifying as pan to prevent that, even though I don't feel that identity is right? Or can I continue to identify as bi without hurting anyone?

Edit: Hm. And, looking more into it, this video helped a lot with that question. Love to hear everyone's thoughts, though.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

As a bisexual man I find it odd, that everyone assumes I am straight. It's not necessarily something I can correct people on either.

Comments of "perhaps you might get a Spanish wife" when talking about my long term plans aren't factually incorrect. I would be open to that since the nature of being bisexual. But I can't help but feel, slightly irritated that they'd assume I would.

Which I why I try to use gender neutral pronouns and nouns when talking about potential partners referring to anyone.

I identify myself bisexual insofar as the reason everyone identifies as heterosexual or homosexual. I haven't met someone who is gender fluid who I have been attracted to yet. So I cannot say I am pansexual. I prefer masculine women to effeminate men. However, I do not hold prejudiced. I just haven't met a highly effeminate man who I felt attracted to.
-
Video reminds me that I do feel different kind of attraction to genders. And different intensity of sexual attraction.
I feel stronger sexual attraction to men because I am exposed to that less so it feels exotic. It seems expected of me top be attracted to women so it's less appealing.


I think from the POV of homophobes, bisexuality confuses them because they see bisexual people and think that homosexuality is a choice.

Doesn't help that homosexual practice (lol that verb) and homosexual state (lol that verb) are independent.
-
Ohh Gay Writes has two videos on Christianity and LBGTA+

[Psyclone]

That was the most succinct and educational video I've ever seen on the subject, wow. She covered a lot of stuff there.

I guess the only things I'd say are that she never explicitly addressed the one person who said that bisexuality was binarist? I think it was implied when she said that one definition for bisexuality is attraction to your own gender and other genders, but she never outright condemned that comment. Honestly that's where I see most bi-hate within the queer community coming from; not about trans people but about nonbinary people. The bi community uses that definition though and is in general very open about the history of their name, so I would say that claiming bisexuality is transphobic or binarist is in itself biphobic.

I was also a little uncomfortable with the fact that she didn't call out the sapiosexual person on their ableism, but that's not what the video was about so I guess she didn't feel like it was a tangent she wanted to take.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I find the frontman from Dark Moor highly attractive.
I rarely get like this for people. But, something about a combination of Spanish, with a beard, with a bandanna, with an awesome voice makes me =

[CamelKnackRambleHort]

So my friends are getting together today and I am probably going to go. If I do I am going to try presenting female, including wearing feminine clothes (a skirt, a feminine sweater, heels, and possibly some light makeup.) This will be the first time anyone but my wife will have seen me dress and present female and I am kind of freaking out.

My wife says the outfit looks good on me, and even though these friends have been nothing but great and supportive as I have come out to them it is still nerve wracking. But this is the next step in my coming out plan (presenting at a social gathering) and this is probably the safest (both physically and emotionally) opportunity I am going to get for a long while. It is only going to be my closest friends which doesn't happen often, so I really want to try.

That's all, I just needed somewhere to vent my feelings a bit. Thanks for listening.

[JustAName]

You're going to be great! I hope you have a wonderful time.

[CamelKnackRambleHort]

Thanks for the encouragement, I'm getting ready right now. Super nervous!

[Avistew]

Have a good time!

[Psyclone]

Best of luck, or if you don't see this until it's over, I hope it went well!

[Deedles]

Have fun and drink responsibly! (If there is any drinking involved!)

[CamelKnackRambleHort]

Hey, I'm back!

It went really well. All my friends were awesome. A couple of these guys have known me for more than 20 years so I was worried it was going to mess with our dynamic, but nothing like that happened. It didn't even feel awkward when I took a minute to go touch up my makeup. But at the same time it wasn't like they were just pretending nothing had happened. Not sure how to say it, but it was exactly what I hoped for. Me being a woman was acknowledged and accepted as normal by everyone involved but no one had to say or do anything to that effect. It just was.

I feel really lucky to have such great friends.

Also, I knew it would feel good to finally be able to present somewhere besides my apartment, but I really did not understand how, I don't know the word, authentic maybe, it made me feel. For the first time pretty much ever I could just be me. I didn't understand how confident and at ease that would make me feel.

So all around a really great night.

[Avistew]

That's awesome, Camel! I'm really happy for you It's nice that you can be yourself with your close friends and not just with yourself. Hopefully you'll be able to extend that to the rest of the world!

In more LGBT news, one of my boyfriends is mostly gay, but was quite surprised to realise he was very attracted to me physically and emotionally (which is why he's my boyfriend now). I had liked him for a while so that was a nice surprise for me too. I think of him as homoflexible now. (My other boyfriend, his husband, is pansexual. I think I may have mentioned that before, although maybe not in this thread).

I found it interesting to think about how it's not that rare to hear about heteroflexible people, or people who experiment with the same gender, or people who are pretty much straight but every once in a while are attracted to or fall in love with someone of their gender... But I don't hear much about homoflexible people. I mean I guess Erika Moen is kind of homoflexible too? Although I think she identifies as queer. But it seems like someone people don't talk about as much. I wonder why.

Could be because bisexuality already gets so little exposure, anything more complicated than that is pretty much not mentioned?

My other boyfriend, the one who is pansexual, commented today that he now match the stereotype of the "greedy bisexual" (having one partner of each gender) and he's not sure how he feels about it. I mean, he's ecstatic about having us in his life, but the stereotype can be pretty damaging to monogamous bi people (or heck, even non-monogamous ones). I can see how he'd have mixed feelings about fitting it.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I think the best description of my sexuality I came across was Ianto Jones in Torchwood talking about his relationship with Captain Jack Harkness.

"It's not all men, it's Jack".

I don't get attracted to genders. I get attracted to people.

(The quote for me is ironic, since Jack Harkness prevented me from acknowledging my sexuality because I had few examples of people who were not heterosexual, and all the men were very camp or flamboyant. I could not identify to those attributes, so I thought I was just, "teenager experimenting feels". I'm glad there's better examples of LBTG people and characters in the world now. It wasn't awesome being confused with why I felt things.

[Arclight_Dynamo]

That's fantastic, CamelKnack! I'm so happy for you, and I'm gald you have such awesome friends!