Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

[MattAn]

Congrats on losing the hat, by the way.

Thanks. In fairness, I only wore it in the first place because I laughed so much on the first look in the mirror. Same with the hair. And...the beard, too. Dark enough times when self-deprecation is your reason for doing things. >.>

....What's wrong with a fedora/trilby? :3 What about berets?

[Matt]

A fascinating and relevant read: here

-m

[Metcarfre]

Congrats on losing the hat, by the way.

Thanks. In fairness, I only wore it in the first place because I laughed so much on the first look in the mirror. Same with the hair. And...the beard, too. Dark enough times when self-deprecation is your reason for doing things. >.>

....What's wrong with a fedora/trilby? :3 What about berets?

This isn't the "Metcarfre ridicules your fashion choices for esoteric and, frankly, ludicrous reasons" thread. Let's stay on topic.

[I X]

....What's wrong with a fedora/trilby? :3 What about berets?

This isn't the "Metcarfre ridicules your fashion choices for esoteric and, frankly, ludicrous reasons" thread. Let's stay on topic.

Yeah. Sorry for diving off there.

[MattAn]

Jokes delivered by a comedian are perceived to reflect the views of the comedian

Sorry, but all of the nope. Very common misconception. People who actually pay attention to how stand-up comedians work on their craft is so much of it is exaggerated and blended. As an example, Wil Anderson has stated that when he talks on stage about one specific incident, that incident is, in fact, three different incidents melded into one. Comedians embellish everything. To assume that literally everything a comedian says is abundantly true? Complete and utter fallacy.

Oh well, still reading!

Basically, the only groups laughing are people who believe in inequality (more on the issues with this later).

Also not really. A person is well within their rights to "find something funny" and not think sinister thoughts about said thing. That's a major generalisation of an individual's ability to think for themselves.
It's also not the comedian's fault if a joke "doesn't reach certain people". Certain people genuinely don't get jokes. There are also plenty of times where comedians are purposefully trying out new material on strange audiences, knowing it's probably not that great.. But that's why comics go on the road and tour, they work out their craft, flesh out their material and form it into polished bits/setlists.
It's why Set List: Comedy Without A Net is so damn popular with comedians and comedy fans alike. It puts well known/established comedians on a stage without a setlist to perform. Topics appear on a screen behind them, they read the topic the exact same time the audience does, and they have to improv it, pretending that it's something they're used to. And it's almost always uncomfortable/awkward topics, because it's testing the comedian.

SetList YouTube videos; just as an example. They're given topics that are meant to break boundaries. That's the entire point. And Set List fans? The men and women that go and see the show? They understand that, and are totally on board with them.

[JustAName]

Jokes delivered by a comedian are perceived to reflect the views of the comedian

...Very common misconception. ...

Just because you think a perception is wrong, doesn't mean it doesn't exist? You just proved the point.

[I X]

Jokes delivered by a comedian are perceived to reflect the views of the comedian

Sorry, but all of the nope. Very common misconception. People who actually pay attention to how stand-up comedians work on their craft is so much of it is exaggerated and blended. As an example, Wil Anderson has stated that when he talks on stage about one specific incident, that incident is, in fact, three different incidents melded into one. Comedians embellish everything. To assume that literally everything a comedian says is abundantly true? Complete and utter fallacy.

Oh well, still reading!

What about when Tommy Tiernan or Billy Connolly get in trouble for their jokes? You've made multiple references to various comedians being douchey or similar because of their jokes. What if they're just embellishing? Maybe they're just *that good* that they create this scumbag persona to make people laugh?

All that said, there are plenty of horrendously shitty comedians who are blatantly out there to offend anyone and everyone. I'm not condoning it at all, I think it's incredibly insensitive. But I don't think certain topics should be entirely censored/ruled out because of a few vocal shitheads.
There's a reason why so many people hate Dane Cook. He's a vile douchebag. The Laugh Factory is known for its vicious comedians. Daniel Tosh and Dane Cook are but two examples.

[Matt]

Jokes delivered by a comedian are perceived to reflect the views of the comedian

Sorry, but all of the yes.

The perception among the majority of the audience, is most definitely that comedians are telling you things they think.

It may not be true, but it's absolutely perceived.

-m

[MattAn]

What about when Tommy Tiernan or Billy Connolly get in trouble for their jokes? You can only say that you don't have that perception, *not* that it doesn't exist. And anyway, you've made multiple references to various comedians being douchey or similar because of their jokes. What if they're just embellishing? Maybe they're just *that good* that they create this scumbag persona to make people laugh?

All that said, there are plenty of horrendously shitty comedians who are blatantly out there to offend anyone and everyone. I'm not condoning it at all, I think it's incredibly insensitive. But I don't think certain topics should be entirely censored/ruled out because of a few vocal shitheads.
There's a reason why so many people hate Dane Cook. He's a vile douchebag. The Laugh Factory is known for its vicious comedians. Daniel Tosh and Dane Cook are but two examples.

Literally nobody takes The Laugh Factory seriously. They are a punchline to other comedians jokes because The Laugh Factory is an awful venue. It's the "Dane Cook"/"Daniel Tosh" crowd. They go to The Laugh Factory.

There are comedians I don't like, there are jokes that I don't find funny. But I also understand that comedy is not for everyone. Sometimes, people take quite a few things way too seriously. This is coming from someone who was severely bullied and beaten up (I don't say that lightly) through high school. There are plenty of comedians who really should not be doing comedy. They have their audience, their audience is no better. Comedians complain about other comedians. Plenty of them will openly admit "That comic is fucking awful".. Doesn't stop them doing it. I'm looking at both sides here. And there's not much that can really be done. Shitty comedians are going to have an audience, and it's very difficult to stop them. Trust me, comedians have tried to end other comedian's careers.

And no, I don't think the perception is wrong, I'm saying there are a very vocal minority (as there is in everything) that ruin it for everyone else. But to make a blanket, generic statement about all comedians and stand-up comedy is just straight up wrong. Yes, it exists, but it is a vocal minority of arsehole "comedians" making all of them look bad, when they're really not.

There are a small few stand-up comedians I really enjoy seeing live (and they're genuinely thought-provoking and insightful, with really interesting/nice messages/callbacks through their shows, which end in a thoughtful message or overall point (especially Australian comedians! American comedians seem to love the shock factor.. Much less so here)

Sorry, but all of the yes.

The perception among the majority of the audience, is most definitely that comedians are telling you things they think.

It may not be true, but it's absolutely perceived.

-m

And as I've heard many a comedian (especially in Australia!) say before, those people are dumb morons who can't think for themselves. The "audience" can think what they want, they're almost always wrong. Every stand-up show I've seen of Rove McManus, Wil Anderson, Justin Hamilton and Adam Hills (all Australians), they're comedians. Jokes are not truth. Granted, some of the things they say, as I've said before, have a neat message or lesson (and again, the ones I've seen have been very thoughtful) To think that's it's all entirely serious thoughts is absolute nonsense.

Maybe the comedy scene is just way better in the southern hemisphere.. Probably why our comedians write a brand new show (and it's a *show*, with very detailed points that make an over-arching journey) literally every year. Americans.. Don't. They're mostly club comics. Louis CK is really the only American comedian I know of these days that has a brand new hour every single year.
If you know the comedian well enough (with the amount of shows Australian comedians do, you get to know them extremely well), you go to see them and you know what they represent. Seeing a random club comic is most definitely not the same thing.

[Matt]

It may be nonsense, but it's still what people think.

You don't have to tell me they're wrong, I already know, but that doesn't change the fact that they believe this stuff.

People believe lots of nonsense.

-m

[MattAn]

So, does hearing rape jokes lead people to rape? Well, that is difficult to assess, as it would require scientists to allow people to get raped (which is relatively unethical… depending on your predisposed attitudes towards rape). However, several studies have shown that appreciation of sexist jokes and just being shown sexist jokes leads to:

Increased blame attached to victims of rape
Increased acceptance of desire to rape
Decreased view of rape as a “serious” problem
Decreased desire to punish rapists

Yeah, this is very much an American-centric thing. Much less a case in Australia, because punters know what they're going in for. In my several years of experience going to live comedy shows, there has never been, even remotely, any instance of people's "increased/decreased" perceptions.. Maybe I'm just lucky, but Australia barely has any of this. Americans have a major "ehrmergerd frerdom of sperch" mentality.. Barely a thing here! There's a lot of comedians who come to Australia to do comedy because our audiences are apparently better and know when too much is too much. The only major issue that happens here is an audience member getting way too drunk and heckling, generally being a nuisance, even when the comedian has done nothing wrong.

In another study, women who heard offensive humor (Don Rickles) made them more likely to aggressively reject female job applicants than when they heard inoffensive humor (George Carlin…apparently).

Yeah, I call bullshit on that "study". George Carlin "inoffensive"? Right. And Don Rickles is adored for his brand of comedy. He wouldn't be selling out shows if he wasn't. From everything I've seen of him, he's also a genuinely charming person, or did no one see his teary speech when he joined Comedy Hall of Fame on Comedy Central's awards? The guy is a class act, which demographic did they show this to? If you're not a fan of stand-up comedy, you're not going to like stand-up comedy.

[Duckay]

I don't honestly remember going to a stand-up comedy act that contained jokes of that nature, but the point stands for all other jokes told of that nature (eg. on TV, or by non-comedians), so I find it very difficult to believe that it wouldn't hold true in stand-up.

The thing is, it's not an active process. It's not "X told a rape joke / sexist joke / whatever, I now believe in those things". It's more that hearing those jokes innoculates people to them, and therefore primes them not to take things as seriously.

[MattAn]

The thing is, it's not an active process. It's not "X told a rape joke / sexist joke / whatever, I now believe in those things". It's more that hearing those jokes innoculates people to them, and therefore primes them not to take things as seriously.

This is missing a few words "And therefore primes them not to take things as seriously... If they're a complete moron that doesn't know how stand-up works". Majority of stand up fans I've known are actually very respectable people. If people are hating how comedians act on stage, I'd hate for people to see how comedians act towards each other backstage! (Hint; it's nasty. Both women and men. They give each other shit. But then again, that's another Australian "trope", people crack jokes at each other, nobody cares)

I also think I need to re-iterate yet again (I mean, seriously!?) that there's a lot of comedy I don't like or care for. The remarks Joan Rivers made about Adele after the Oscars? Take a look at the thread I created with that video of Adam Hills tearing Joan to pieces on live British TV. Go on, go look. I agreed with Adam, Joan's remarks were totally out-of-line! Adam's a professional stand-up comedian and beloved TV presenter, and he's the most welcoming, kindest person I've ever had the fortune to meet. All these articles seem to throw a sweeping judgement over all comedians, rather than the very minor vocal few.

Nevertheless, we view the purpose of comedy is two-fold: provide entertainment and promote the betterment of society. If you’re not doing one, you should be doing the other, and most great comedians do both.

So.. We're all supposed to instantly forget how "Comedy = Tragedy + Time"? That's still a thing. It's not "too soon" forever..

[Duckay]

I am not in any way trying to say that all comedians are guilty. I am in no way trying to accuse you of liking offensive humour that you have stated you don't like.

My point is simply that there exists a passive response to hearing a lot of rape jokes: taking the subject matter less seriously. In societies where rape jokes are common, in stand-up, on TV, and in common conversation, there is a level of taking rape less seriously than it should be. This is often self-perpetuating.

[MattAn]

Just as a note, Duckay, my apologies, I wasn't directing my entire post solely at you. :3 Just as an overall post.

As I've stated before, that's on the individual for saying/believing stupid things as fact. Chris Hardwick had a joke on his first hour special in which he talks about Nasonex (a nasal spray) being like "Antonio Banderas fucking your nose as a horny bee". It. Killed. (Comedy speak for he nailed it.)
Is that a "bad joke"? Entirely situational. Not everyone has to like it. I'm not saying "All rape jokes should be allowed." Hell no. That's absurd to even think such a thing. But it's also rather silly to assume that comedians are entirely enabling simply by saying words, when stand-up is jokes. Jokes are not school lectures. They are not "You must all go do this immediately". The only things remotely like that are, from the comedians I've seen, like Adam Hills' recent show "Happyism", it was about his grandfather deciding to adopt his own personal religion (Happyism), "Love your family and help others". That was the message. At the end of an hour or so of crazy jokes that all tied together.

I can't honestly say I think comedians (of all the fucking people in the world..) are the cause for this "rape culture" stuff. Sure, the poor-taste comedians are a lot of the blame, but again, they're a very niche audience (seriously, they are, they're just VERY vocal)..
Most importantly, I believe that.. Y'know what? Certain people in this world are absolute pricks. Without assistance, they're vile pricks and they think terrible thoughts.

It's why I hate places like 4chan so much (really, don't get me started on 4chan..), trolls will be trolls. Anonymity does evil things to people. People like Adam Hills, who I've mentioned how his shows usually end on a light/touching note.. He also only has one foot (wears an artificial right foot). He still gets abuse from hateful people who think he's "boring" or "crippled".. Among other things. Purely because of his disability. He doesn't let his disability negatively affect him. He's been nominated for the most prestigious Australian TV award for Most Popular Personality on TV for going on SIX YEARS IN A ROW. He works for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation channel, not a commercial TV channel, often overlooked (though he has one Best Presenter before).

Plenty of stand-ups do it for the love of.. Doing stand-up. They're not priests, they don't actually preach anything (though, again, American comedians sometimes..)

Australia also has a very large[/]i and still growing list of extremely funny, well-respected gay and lesbian comedians. A lot of [i]them can be "bitchy" or "sexist" as well, sometimes even to their own gender. People don't really take jokes so seriously over here (granted, there's a few exceptions.. TV/Australian Football exec personality Eddie McGuire "jokingly" (I don't buy it as a "joke") called Adam Goodes, an Aboriginal footballer from a team he isn't a member of (not that relevant, an "ape". Obviously, this is clearly a racist slur, based on the colour of his skin. Yes, that's absolutely uncalled for. People (a vocal minority) suddenly came to defence going "omg take a joke!!11!!1". I understand there are limits. I know this. But it's a bit much to use the entirety of stand-up comedy as a scapegoat for a vocal minority's fault.

[Duckay]

That was part of my point when I said it was self-perpetuating; those people who buy into this stuff make the jokes, which normalizes it for people who were perhaps halfway there, and so it goes in turn. Comedy like this is a symptom, and a part of the problem, but neither the cause nor the whole problem. I think it's important not to over OR under estimate it.

Also, I know you're clarifying the cultural norms of Australia for those who aren't from this country, but some of your comments surprise me, because it doesn't quite tally with my own experience.

[MattAn]

That was part of my point when I said it was self-perpetuating; those people who buy into this stuff make the jokes, which normalizes it for people who were perhaps halfway there, and so it goes in turn. Comedy like this is a symptom, and a part of the problem, but neither the cause nor the whole problem. I think it's important not to over OR under estimate it.

Also, I know you're clarifying the cultural norms of Australia for those who aren't from this country, but some of your comments surprise me, because it doesn't quite tally with my own experience.

You're more than welcome to put forward your take I'm mistaken anywhere regarding Australian culture! I'm not trying to imply that "Everything I've typed here is pure golden awesome and you are welcome to my castle to partake in its brilliance!" Well.. Mostly. I'll happily stand by my opinions, and am more than willing to change said opinions (or my mind, whatever) about certain things, within reason.

I can absolutely understand that it could be perceived as a symptom and possible misconception to the general public.. Just.. I don't know. From my personal experience (and trust me, when something is incredibly sexist, racist, nasty, cruel, etc.. You can be damn sure I will fight back against it. I'm not (entirely) heartless.

I mean.. I still get offended by things. I do take things to heart very personally. I've had some damn petty arguments with a particular on-off friend that just turn sour quickly because I end up getting extremely defensive/protective as he got more and more offensive (not in his remarks, just in tone). I'll admit I don't like how general society views things so nonchalantly. I don't like either extreme, both have their major cons..

Do I think things need to change and certain comedians need to shut the hell up and have some damn respect? Sure! Most definitely! This doesn't mean I want comedians to be delicate flowers about certain issues either. I guess.. I like that someone is making observations that I normally wouldn't. I'm old enough and wise enough to, when sitting in an audience at a comedy show, know when a joke is too harsh. Maybe I'm lucky? The communities involved with certain comedy podcasts I'm a fan of (Walking The Room, TOFOP/FOFOP, Hamish & Andy, The Little Dum Dum Club, Nerdist.. There are many genuinely nice, understanding comedy nerd fans.. So please forgive me, guys, if I come across as somewhat.. Defensive. I really don't see a major issue through these (actually very large) groups of comedy fans. The few that do appear are often swiftly insulted by the comedian because they decided to be an asshat. All these podcasts, etc I listen to? Nothing but love and support for female comedians, comedy in general. People just love good comedy.

[Metcarfre]

So, does hearing rape jokes lead people to rape? Well, that is difficult to assess, as it would require scientists to allow people to get raped (which is relatively unethical… depending on your predisposed attitudes towards rape). However, several studies have shown that appreciation of sexist jokes and just being shown sexist jokes leads to:

Increased blame attached to victims of rape
Increased acceptance of desire to rape
Decreased view of rape as a “serious” problem
Decreased desire to punish rapists

Yeah, this is very much an American-centric thing. Much less a case in Australia, because punters know what they're going in for. In my several years of experience going to live comedy shows, there has never been, even remotely, any instance of people's "increased/decreased" perceptions.. Maybe I'm just lucky, but Australia barely has any of this. Americans have a major "ehrmergerd frerdom of sperch" mentality.. Barely a thing here! There's a lot of comedians who come to Australia to do comedy because our audiences are apparently better and know when too much is too much. The only major issue that happens here is an audience member getting way too drunk and heckling, generally being a nuisance, even when the comedian has done nothing wrong.

In another study, women who heard offensive humor (Don Rickles) made them more likely to aggressively reject female job applicants than when they heard inoffensive humor (George Carlin…apparently).

Yeah, I call bullshit on that "study". George Carlin "inoffensive"? Right. And Don Rickles is adored for his brand of comedy. He wouldn't be selling out shows if he wasn't. From everything I've seen of him, he's also a genuinely charming person, or did no one see his teary speech when he joined Comedy Hall of Fame on Comedy Central's awards? The guy is a class act, which demographic did they show this to? If you're not a fan of stand-up comedy, you're not going to like stand-up comedy.

Cool data bro.

[RoyalBlue]

Maybe we're not ready as a world for rape jokes. Maybe we need to grow up to a point where rape is a thing of the past before we can laugh. A joke is tragedy plus time, but maybe not enough time has past.

[Duckay]

MattAn, I just don't honestly get what you're saying when you say things like "People don't really take jokes so seriously over here". I'm not sure if you mean "people aren't offended by jokes", or "people don't internalize and perpetuate views based on jokes".

I have definitely seen both of those things happen. And I've experienced the fallout; I've been called a whole swath of names, of which 'killjoy' is among the most minor for expressing hurt or offense over a 'joke' which cut too close to the bone based on my history. And, sadly, I have seen people who do perpetuate wrong and hurtful ideas about, for example, rape, racial vilification, etc, and use film, TV and stand-up comedy as 'proof' that others agree with them.

To go on to what you were saying about how people crack jokes at each other and nobody cares: the example people often use is that it's okay to say horrible things to a friend that you wouldn't say to anyone else. To an extent, of course that's true, but that's not exactly because it's a double-standard. It's because you're more familiar with which buttons are and aren't okay to press with a close friend, and can be more forgiving when a line is crossed because you know where the other person is coming from. And there is, of course, a big difference between two people trading barbs that aren't designed to hurt, and one person making 'jokes' at the expense of another person who cannot respond.

[tak197]

First of all, comedy isn't funny to everyone but some people will always find certain things funny. That's okay.

HOWEVER, there are A LOT of things that just are not funny at all, and rape is one of them. Violent crimes are not funny. That is why people get so offended. Have I laughed at Holocaust jokes, rape jokes, and other dirty jokes? Yes, but that doesn't mean I always find them funny or that it's okay to direct hateful speech at someone.

Call me a hypocrite if that's what you think I am, but using rape as an insult is not funny. It's bullying.

[MattAn]

First of all, comedy isn't funny to everyone but some people will always find certain things funny. That's okay.

HOWEVER, there are A LOT of things that just are not funny at all, and rape is one of them. Violent crimes are not funny. That is why people get so offended. Have I laughed at Holocaust jokes, rape jokes, and other dirty jokes? Yes, but that doesn't mean I always find them funny or that it's okay to direct hateful speech at someone.

Call me a hypocrite if that's what you think I am, but using rape as an insult is not funny. It's bullying.

I have seen comedians talk about raping inanimate objects or themselves, not any other human being. Even airline logos and candy bars (not even kidding). Isn't "Rip into a Slim Jim!" technically "raping a Slim Jim"? Literally zero humans harmed in that. Is this "uncalled for"?

[The Jester]

Stuff like that normalises the behaviour. It makes it seem more everyday.

Also, stuff like raping candy bars makes it seem like an achievement.

[tamaness]

A well-executed rape joke. Bonus: it doesn't celebrate the normalization of rape, instead basing the joke on the same.

[I X]

Just how bad was this 'just let it happen, it'll be over soon' joke during the Killer Instinct demo? I don't want to get sucked into a night of stupid E3 clips but I heard about that on Twitter and could scarcely believe it.