Feminism general thread

[Metcarfre]

THIS SHIT;

https://twitter.com/FionaIngleby/status ... 5321814016

https://twitter.com/FionaIngleby/status ... 3772297216

https://twitter.com/FionaIngleby/status ... 0001471489

https://twitter.com/FionaIngleby/status ... 1060325376

[Elomin Sha]

While checks through peer review to stop bias and make corrections is normal the person's suggestions and personal opinions are quite stupid. If a male writer helps gets a piece published then there are some issues at the publisher/in general when personal merit of what is being written means nothing.

I wonder what was in the elipsis sections.

[phlip]

I wonder what was in the elipsis sections.

They're planning on releasing the whole thing, but are waiting until the appeal is over, first.

Also, that is some A-grade BS right there.

[Avistew]

This is frustrating because the same people who will say that papers need to be co-authored by males for the sake of fairness usually do not bat an eye to male-only authored papers, so there is an obvious double standard.

Also the idea that women can't write something on gender studies because they'd be biased (but a man wouldn't be?)
I've seen the same attitude with gay authors writing about sexuality. Comments fly about how they're biased by their homosexuality. But of course if a researcher is straight then their work is just facts and not questioned as biased.

[phlip]

This is frustrating because the same people who will say that papers need to be co-authored by males for the sake of fairness usually do not bat an eye to male-only authored papers, so there is an obvious double standard.

Also the idea that women can't write something on gender studies because they'd be biased (but a man wouldn't be?)
I've seen the same attitude with gay authors writing about sexuality. Comments fly about how they're biased by their homosexuality. But of course if a researcher is straight then their work is just facts and not questioned as biased.

Are you now or have you ever been in the possession of a gender and/or sexuality?

[ccscheurman]

I just found out this thread exists and it broke my heart. I've been an avid LRR fan for years (though not in forums), just supporting by watching almost all videos for years. I am avidly against feminism (third-wave feminism) in any and all forms, largely because it doesn't focus on both gender's issues. It is NOT for equal rights, it is at best petty and at worst poison. Not to say there are no good feminists, but the movement as a whole has become toxic. Feminists have no interests in men's goals, even though men make up half of rape victim's if you factor in prisons. Even though men 9 out of 10 domestic abuse shelters won't serve men and some even blame them for being abused. (Yes, I have sources, I will provide them if you ask). Feminists have fought to have men's shelters closed, feminists have doxed people for disagreeing with them, feminists have fought to have the legal definition of rape read in such a way that only men can be convicted of it. I don't say this to say all feminists are evil, but I say this to show the "equality" that some feminist groups are fighting for. Plus, feminist leaders try to create a culture of people living in fear, by lying about rape and abuse statistics (I have many sources for this to)to keep people "needing" feminism.

Honestly, seeing this forum even existing on this website makes me very concerned... because a group as largely level headed as LRR can have a forum this long about modern feminism makes me worried it may be one day accepted. It is nearly inevitable that if feminism becomes the norm, than we will have an Orwellian future. Look at large feminist groups, watch examples of them silencing people for simply disagreeing with them. I'm scared and horrified that some day they will be in control. Heck, they've got the President of the United States quoting the false wage gap statistic.

I could talk about the horror that is modern day feminism for hours on end, but that would do me no good.. Honestly, if I can change one person's mind, I'm happy. I expect a backlash from this. I wouldn't even be surprised if I were banned.

Here are the beliefs I hold dear: Misandry and Misogyny exist, There is no patriarchy in the US and White/Male/Straight privilege is a lie.


I only post this because I care about LRR and the community so deeply, I watch LRR videos nearly every day and I just needed to speak my mind because the fact this thread existed worried and saddened me.

Side note: I'm bi, I'm trans (mtf) and I'm mixed race. If any of those facts changed your thoughts on my post, you may need to reevaluate how you view people.

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

Yeah...Feminism exists, and is so widespread, for a reason.

Because women are, well, not treated equally in many cases. Sure it could be a coincidence that 85% of the workforce of where I work are women, yet 83% of senior management are male (5/6). Or perhaps it's an indication that males find it far easier to progress to higher management.


Yes, there are some extreme feminists; but most feminists just want an equal deal. Equality is not a pie, it's not finite. Giving women more equality does not take away the equality of men.



Also, I can't speak for all the LRR crew but...uhhh...I think you're going to be disappointed if you think they're all anti-feminist.

[Deedles]

ccscheurman, if you want a good representation of what feminism is, and not the fanatical kind that you describe, I suggest you give this video a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkjW9PZBRfk

[ccscheurman]

Valkyrie-Lemons

I never said women are treated equally, BUT men also have a bad time of things. I think there need to be advocates for both, because there are major inequalities that men aren't getting help for (suicide rate, death in combat, child custody).

"Giving women more equality does not take away the equality of men."

Exactly, so why advocate for men's shelters to be shut down? See, I have zero issues with egalitarianism, because it's what feminism should be. I have no problem with 95% of feminists, but it's the vocal minority that make the word toxic and make it about supremacy.

I've had an ex-boyfriend be raped and have authority figures laugh in his face and tell him to man up. He killed himself. Is that not a problem that equality would have helped?

The reason I support egalitarianism is that there is no gendered word in there. I think MRAs are a similar... actually worse problem. I was a feminist until the aforementioned incident happened.

Deedles,

Again, I agree with 95% of feminists, but the vocal minority has poisoned the words, but I notice more and more media outlets taking them seriously.

I have seen that video before and generally think that any focus on gender is wrong. HumanforHuman not HeforShe

[ccscheurman]

Oh and no, I don't think the LRR crew is anti-feminist. I'm not even anti-feminist in concept, just in usage of the word that has been ruined and has an inherent gender bias.

However, hopefully not all members of LRR are feminists, recently, it has been estimated that only 1/5 of people in the US and Canada are. Not being feminist doesn't mean one is hateful, just slightly different with their views, that number is low, in no small part, because of how that word has been poisoned.

[JustAName]

Side note: I'm bi, I'm trans (mtf) and I'm mixed race.

I'm pretty sure these facts are not true.

I'm also pretty sure this is a GG-style troll trying to stir up some drama, because some of the things they've said are very ridiculous. I would recommend not engaging, but knowing people around here... just be careful.

[ccscheurman]

Fayili

Actually what the fuck? No, I'm sorry. I was pretty calm until now, but how dare you. How dare you? I could lie about things online, sure, but the fact that you think it's impossible for someone like me to have those views is fucking outrageous. It's racist, it's sexist and it's transphobic. I am half white, half powhatan native american. I am bi, can't really prove that, I've dated guys and girls, I've made out with guys and girls. Don't know what else you want. If you are SO CONVINCED that a trans person can't possibly be against sexism (read: radical feminism), then I'd gladly direct message you my therapists phone number, yes, I do have diagnosed gender dysphoria, part of what attracted me to LRR is how welcoming they are to us. I have traditional parents, so I can't start hormone therapy yet, but I plan to once I can get a job and move out.

I don't think you know what trolling is. A troll doesn't spend half an hour writing a post at 5:30 in the morning. I don't think anything I said was that outrageous. Passionate yes, but...

My links were flagged as spam, but I can message my proof to you.

[ccscheurman]

Here are two of my links of "Proof"


Feminists define rape: http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fe ... rd-rapeib/

Lies about "Rape culture": http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-i ... -straight/

Look, I'm sorry, but I am very upset that you're challenging my character and challenging who I am based solely on my views.

[Deedles]

A troll very well might spend that much time on a post, as a lot of people troll because they find it funny, or simply because they're bored.

That said, I think your stance makes no sense. Feminism isn't just about women, doesn't matter what that radical 5%(by what you yourself said) that you're referring to says. It's about breaking down damaging gender stereotypes, fullstop. Now feminism is started and pushed by women because we are the 'lesser' gender in the eyes of society and we need it the most, but that doesn't mean that males don't need it as well.

To state otherwise is to simply misrepresent what feminism is, as you are now.

[ccscheurman]

Deedles,

See, I suppose that is fair, but if you don't attach a gender to it, then it will truly be equal, at least in my eyes. See, I hear people say "feminism isn't just about woman", but show me, show me one time feminists have come to a man's defense!

As a woman, there is no need to be viewed as the lesser gender, no sane person thinks of women as lesser than men. If we want equality we fight for both sides. Which I have yet to see one feminist do.

To make this clear, if we base it off your definition of feminism, then yes, I am a feminist, but who isn't? I haven't met one person. By my definition of feminism and from everything I've seen of it, it is not for equality.

If proven wrong, if I've just SEEN bad feminism and the vast majority is working for both sides problems, I will admit I am wrong.

[JustAName]

I apologize. Some people have pointed out to me that if you only saw the worst of tumblr radfems, then you might mistake that for feminism. I thought you were a troll because you resurrected a thread that had fallen off the first page - so you must have gone digging for it - posted while clearly not having read any of the rest of the thread, and made some pretty strong straw feminist claims. I do apologize for the ad hominem, though.

[ccscheurman]

Hey, thank you so much for apologizing, I absolutely accept your apology. The reason I found this was actually odd. I listened to FTF and Dan quoted a feminist author who brought up the Patriarchy (Something which I have heard legit feminists bring up, but do not agree with) so I googled "LRR Feminism" and this is the first result. That's how I stumbled upon it.

To be fair, most of the feminism I have seen is off tumblr and twitter, but i've heard that stuff parroted by real news organizations. Some things that I've heard real feminists stay, I still would say aren't true.

- Patriarchy (If we were in a patriarchy, you could not say "Smash the patriarchy")
- Rape Culture (Rape goes two ways and is often punished)
- Cultural Appropriation (This is just a dumb concept)
- Lack of focus on men's issues (I need to see it before I believe it)
- Lack of focus on the third world (where there actually is a patriarchy)

I mean, I think Christina Hoff Sommers is great. I know I've seen some people here being fairly against her, even on here, but I have to say she does have legitimate points and is fun to listen to. I would hope people on here would at least concede that CHS has some good points.

I didn't read all 42 pages, of the thread, but I skimmed a good majority. But yes, a lot of the "feminism" i see is off Tumblr in Action, but I see some of that stuff starting to be talked about by real sources and feminist leaders. Plus, feminists have started abuse on twitter on Gamergate type levels and I don't associate with bullies.

Again, thank you for your apology and it is absolutely accepted.

[JustAName]

The patriarchy isn't some Orwellian dictatorship, although maybe it would be easier for some people to believe if it were. The patriarchy is just a simple way of referring to the fact that most people in high positions of power, both governmentally and in day-to-day life, are rich white straight cis men, who have a strong interest in keeping things status quo, and often try to restrict the freedoms of people who are not like them.

Rape culture is absolutely a thing. It's not about rape "going one way," it's about the fact that BEING raped is shameful in our culture, and people are often disbelieved when they try to let authorities know what happened to them. You say that rape is "often" punished, but it should always be punished, not just some of the time. This is also a very odd stance for you to take, given your earlier comments about your boyfriend committing suicide for not being believed.

Cultural Appropriation is a real thing, and is not cool. Please explain why it is a "dumb concept". Is blackface being offensive dumb?

I can only say that you've not been seeing the focus on men's issues because you've been looking in the wrong places. Every feminist I know is also concerned about men's issues, and the belief that feminists aren't is usually something perpetuated by MRAs (in fact, you have said that MRAs are bad, but you mostly use their talking points, and linked to an MRA website, so I'm really confused about that).

The "third world" does not really exist; it was a term used to refer to certain countries during the cold war. It does not describe how "developed" a country is. And people often use it to refer to Africa and India as a whole, as if the whole continent and subcontinent respectively were some haven of savagery. And just because some places are worse than here doesn't mean we can't focus on making here better.

[ccscheurman]

I know that's what "the patriarchy" is, but I still don't believe in it. In actuality, I have experienced more "privilege" since being openly trans (to essentially everyone but my parents) than I ever did presenting as male. Rich, Rich is the key word, not white, not straight, not cis, not men. Anybody who is rich can run the world. And for that matter Hilary Clinton will be elected president, because she is a woman, not in spite of it. I've known a large number of people who voted for Obama, because he was black. I've seen my people have their freedoms restricted and while that is awful, I blame poor government, not some patriarchy. It isn't straight, cis, white men who are privileged, it is the rich. The rich, in my opinion, want middle class people to believe in a patriarchy, cause it keeps them all infighting.

Rape culture, here is the strongest thing against it. Nobody thinks that rape is okay. Nobody I've ever heard speak has said that. And it's shameful when men try to report, but men have also had their lives ruined by false accusations. It should always be punished, so should murder, murder is also "often" punished. My boyfriend was raped and nobody took him seriously, that isn't a "rape culture" thing. A "rape culture" would be rape is a norm. The number one reason, I believe, nobody took him seriously, is because rape is viewed as a crime only men can commit. More proof? The entire Emma Sulkowicz case. THAT was shameful, and I have no idea how anyone can believe in a rape culture after that.

Black face - meant to mock, Learning a foreign language - meant to honor, dressing like a foreign culture - meant to honor. It's about intention.

I've looked, believe me, I have. I make it a habit of criticizing MRAs to the same extent I criticize feminists, and most people I know who make the claims I did, are anti-feminst and anti-MRA. The MRA link was because it was the easiest source I had available, I went for the easy link, been up for 20 hours.

Until the USA legalizes rape and marrying 9 years old girls, I don't think the USA, one of the most privileged places anybody can live, should be focused on. As a trans person, a bi person, or a racial minority, I can do anything a straight, white, cis person can, I will not be legally beaten to death in the streets for being trans in the USA.

[JustAName]

Trans people are disproportionately the victims of murder, "corrective rape," and violence in general. Their attackers are often not punished. And have you gotten more "privilege" online, or out in the world? There is a big difference. It also is a big deal where in the US you live. I have several trans friends in the south who are regularly afraid for their safety.

[ccscheurman]

Although, ultimately, You won't convince me to be a feminist, I won't convince you to not be, it's best we drop it. I'm sure we've both heard these arguments a thousand time. I made the original post, more to speak my mind.

[korvys]

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I don't want to dismiss someone if they are genuinely interested in having a conversation about these topics. They are complicated topics, and a lot of the problems that exist (patriarchy, rape culture, etc) are able to exist (it is proposed) because of their ability to hide. So while I might think it's clear, I can't really blame someone who disagrees.

But, on the other hand, you are making a lot of the same arguments, and linking to the same sites, and are similarly a fan of CH Sommers, etc, as those gamergate/MRA style trolls. Which is not to say that you are one. But if you're really sincere, you may want to consider the significance of being finding yourself making the same points as them.

In any case, more importantly than any political or social affiliation, is that you haven't attacked or insulted anyone. So as far as I'm concerned, you're as welcome here as anyone else. I will say, though, that you'll find that most here, including/especially the crew, will disagree with you on this topic.

So, my actual response:

To your last post, you absolutely could convince me to not be a feminist, if you were able to make convincing arguments.

Some of the points you've made have some merit, but don't disprove or diminish the importance of feminism. Yes, classism is a big problem as well, but I don't think it accounts for all of the same things that the patriarchy is blamed for. Intent is a factor in regards to things like cultural appropriation, but good or benign intent can't be used to dismiss the actual impact.

Other points you've made I have only ever heard made by anti-feminists, about feminists.
I've never heard of feminists campaigning to have a shelter for men shut down.
I've never heard of feminists campaigning to define rape as only able to be performed by a man.
If you have any examples of these, preferably from some original source, rather than collected on an MRA blog, I'd be very interested to see them.

And then you have made a lot of points I just don't think are true. Mostly about feminists not being interested in men's issues. Most men's issues come as a result of strict gender roles. Men are expected to act a certain way, and women a certain way. Men are expected to be the bread-winners, women are expected to be the care-takers. Men are expected to be rational/stoic, women are expected to be emotional. Men are expected to be aggressive, women passive/submissive. If you don't conform to these, there is social pressure to change.

Additionally, in most of these dichotomies, the traits that are associated with women are typically seen as more negative. Being emotional, being nurturing, etc. Which means women have societal pressure to act a certain way, then are punished for it.

Feminism wants to break down these roles. Women should be able to present themselved as aggressive and logical, without being labelled a bitch. They should be able to be the bread-winner in a relationship.

But just because this tearing down of roles is framed as giving more options to women, it will also allow more options for men. Men should be able to be emotional, and not just told to "harden up". It should not be weird for a man to be the caregiver at home, and therefore be just as qualified to get custody over a child (a common men's right's complaint).

Now, I don't doubt there are some people who call themselves feminists, who really do hate men, and all that jazz, but just like we don't think all Americans are nuts just cause a couple think they saw a UFO, a few bad feminists don't make feminism bad. Those bad feminist don't give feminism a bad name. Anti-feminists do. They are the ones who highlight the few bad ones, and try to depict them as being the majority, or at least significant, when they are not.


There's a few other things you mentioned, but I'm probably wasting my time. You've already said you're not interested in being convinced.
Or maybe you're a troll.

But I hope I'm wrong.

[korvys]

Oh, and while I'm here, something I was meaning to share anyway.

The wonderful Mike Rugnetta (of PBS Idea Channel) wrote about the the wage gap: http://mikerugnetta.tumblr.com/post/123692342020/hey-mike-just-saw-your-latest-video-i-really.

I think the thing that was most interesting to me was that when a lot of people say the wage gap doesn't exist, they're sort of right, if you define it in a certain way.

If you adjust for job, age, experience, responsibility, etc, the wage gap mostly disappears. But over a population, women clearly earn less, as they are more likely to be in different, lower paying jobs, have less experience, less responsibility, etc.

Which sort of changes to the issue from businesses paying women less for the same work, which is what early feminists were fighting for, to a larger, society scale issue, around why women make choices to enter lower paying jobs, etc.

[Matt]

Just, for the record: the 2012 expansion of the FBI's definition of Rape from:

"carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will."

(in use since 1929 and explicitly exclusive of male rape)

to:

"penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

(still perhaps insufficiently inclusive of men, considering rape by envelopment, but no longer strictly gender-specific),

was the result of an initiative by the Women's Law Project and the Feminist Majority Foundation.

-m

[Matt]

As an additional, back of the napkin calculation, using the best (American) numbers I could find in about 30 seconds on Google:

1.4% of men report (as surveyed by the CDC) experiencing a rape in their lifetime
4.8% of men report being made to penetrate another person at some point in their lifetime.

Roughly 5.1% of the population of the U.S. Will be incarcerated at some point in their life.

Prison rape statistics are unreliable, but the estimated incidence of rape in prison is probably around 20% (talking the high-end of the range reported by studies of incidence of prison sexual assault)

The male population of the U.S. Is 151.4million.

Assuming no overlap between male victims of penetrative rape and rape by envelopment (generous)

And no overlap between survey respondents and those who were sexually assaulted in prison (dubiously generous)

AND assuming that all persons previously or currently incarcerated are male (which they aren't).

The total incidence of Male rape estimates to:

2.12M raped
7.27M made to penetrate
1.54M raped in prison

That's 10.93M men. Let's call it 11M.

That equates to an incidence rate of around 7%. Or about 1:14. And remember, that's assuming no overlap, and that every single prisoner in the U.S. is a man.

The CDC's estimated incidence of rape among women (taken from the same survey report as the male estimates above) is 1:5. 20%.

There are 158.6 million women in the U.S.

Even including prison rape, the estimated incidence one men is less than half of that among women.

In fact, even if the incidence of prison rape were 100%, keeping all other assumptions the same, that would still not equate to the estimated rate among women. (It works out to about 11.5% overall).

10.93million men
31.72million women

As stated, that's a pretty rough calculation, (and the male estimate is clearly, dramatically inflated by my stated assumptions, but I think it should serve well enough to call into question the claim that rates of sexual assault are in any way equivalent, whether or not one factors in prison rape.


-m