Feminism general thread

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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 27 Jul 2015, 01:01

ccscheurman wrote:A rape culture, by definition, would be a culture that moves to condone and normalize rape. That's what the term rape culture means to me, and many others.

If teaching an entire generation of people that "No" doesn't always mean "No", that sometimes "They were asking for it", that "They shouldn't have gotten drunk if they didn't want it to happen" is valid, isn't "Condoning and normalising" rape, I don't know what is.

Sure, no one would ever say they condone rape. But actions speak louder than word. We (society) through our actions, have redefined rape, and condoned that. Normalised that.

That is all the stuff we were talking about earlier. I don't think anyone here would disagree with your definition of rape culture. But it seems like we have different definitions of "condone and normalise".
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Amake » 27 Jul 2015, 01:49

It's hard to define culture in general as well as any specific aspects our culture, but look at for example sports culture. I'm pretty sure the public's interest in athletic sports has decreased overall in the last generations, as has the number of outspoken sports enthusiasts, the number of athletes and their highest levels of income. But no one would deny for a second that we live in a sports culture, where people abuse innocent children into competing with each other and make excuses to justify nonsensical sports things like calling handegg "football" or shifting positions on how much performance enhancement you can/should use.

Yes there are a lot of positive things about sports, it's not a metaphor or anything. I'm just saying any way you define our culture, sports is and continues to be a significant part of that culture. And so is rape. In fact I'd say rape is an immeasurably larger part of our culture than sports is, going just by a wild estimation on how much time people spend raping compared to playing sports. Whatever you want to call rape culture that sounds better, safer or less confrontational than "rape culture" is going to be dishonest.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 27 Jul 2015, 18:58

"in Saudi Arabia and there is no written law which specifically criminalizes rape or prescribes its punishment"

"under United Arab Emirates law, rape victims are nonetheless guilty of "illicit sex," which is illegal, regardless of consent."

In Afghanistan, Rape victims are jailed, and encouraged to marry their rapists.

"Last month, police in the Bulandshahr district (India) arrested a 10-year-old child after her family pressed charges against a local man accusing him of raping the child. The arresting officers, perhaps surprisingly, were female."

^ That too me is the definition of normalizing and condoning rape.

Now, that's not to say America doesn't have problems with rape, we certainly do, and I've talked at length about that. But calling America a rape culture is putting America on the same level of all these countries. There are no degrees of rape culture. America and Canada are some of the safest places. Looking at a couple lists of the safest places. America is perennially in the top 5 or 6, Canada is almost always in the top 3 safest places to live and top 10 safest places to travel.

Rape destroys lives, rape is a large problem, according to recent estimates, 1 in every 53 American women are raped and that is a number that is just way too high. And, I'm not suggesting that we not do anything and just focus on other nations. We need to have a dialogue about consent, we need to take steps to prevent rape. However, it seems to me that calling America a rape culture when there are still countries where rape is legal, and accusers are not only not believed, but jailed. That just seems dishonest to me. Similar to calling America a police state. There are not degrees of police state, just as there are not degrees of rape culture.

And it's not about safer words, It's about honest words.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 27 Jul 2015, 19:21

A note about rape stats.

It's important, when commenting on or comparing rape statistics, to make apples to apples comparisons.

In her "sexual assault myths" video, CHS makes reference to a Bureau of Justice Statistics study that "debunks" the commonly cited "1 in 5 women are victims of rape"statistic.

What she doesn't mention is that the survey she is citing refers to the rate of victimization within a single year. The specific data she refers to is for 2013.

The "1 in 5" statistic is for women who were victims of completed or attempted sexual assault within their lifetime.

That is not a like-for-like comparison. 1 in 53 women are raped each year. 1 in 5 will be a victim of sexual assault in their lifetime.

Those are not incompatible statistics, but we should not conflate the two.

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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 27 Jul 2015, 19:34

While I used Sommers as one source, this study was the main one, note, it's a pdf, so if you're using your phone their may be issues.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

Similarly, in a study based off of FBI data conducted by the Baltimore sun, it was concluded that women have a 2.3% chance of being raped in their lifetime, and 0.2 percent chance of being raped while in college.

"According to the FBI "[t]he rate of forcible rapes in 2012 was estimated at 52.9 per 100,000 female inhabitants."

Is a basis they went on, but they extended that to lifetime stats and adjusted for rape trends throughout the years.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 27 Jul 2015, 19:48

We're back to talking semantics, but I don't really mind. I find language very interesting.

If you break the law, you are, by definition, a criminal. But we don't usually call people who jaywalk, or get a speeding ticket, etc, criminals. There is a point, though, where the label "Criminal" gets used. Petty theft? Maybe. Mugging? Almost certainly. Robbery, murder, rape? Sure. Serial killer? Yes, but we also start using stronger words. But just because all of those things, past a certain point might make someone a criminal, that doesn't mean there aren't degrees within that label.

The US, and a lot of other countries, have a culture that trivialises rape. I think that's enough to call it a rape culture. The existence of worse examples doesn't change that. Otherwise, you could argue that (for example, not sure of the details) India doesn't have a rape culture, cause it's not as bad as the UAE. But the UAE isn't a rape culture, because it isn't as bad as Saudi Arabia. Arguing that a given label can not include a range of things is to argue that that label can only apply to a single thing, the thing that exemplifies that label.

Which I don't think you're actually arguing. Rather, you seem to be saying that the range of things that "Rape Culture" covers shouldn't extend as far as the US. Which I disagree with. I don't think anyone calling the US a "rape culture" is saying, or even implying "which makes it just as bad as these other countries", though that does sound like something anti-feminists would say feminists are saying.

When it comes to "honest words", precision is nice, but lacking precision doesn't mean we should interpret as being as malicious as possible.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 27 Jul 2015, 20:38

Before a respond to you, I just wanna clarify something to Matt.

The source I use is the same Sommoers uses, but reading it is actually very interesting and the Baltimore Sun actually does adjust for it.

Okay, now Korvys.

Honestly, I'd rather be talking semantics, because we both have found common ground and a discussion on semantics is much less likely to be heated.

If we call the United States a rape culture, than it is fair to argue that every country in the world is a rape culture. If all countries are rape cultures, than in many people's eyes, no countries are rape cultures.

If you want an example of using the same words causing a problem, though this evidence is largely anecdotal, I've heard people say "I call America a police state, but obviously it's not as bad as Nazi Germany" and then those same people a year later saying "American police are literally Nazis"

Looking at the term rape culture, The Penguin Atlas of Women of the world ranks the United States as bad as Somalia and Uganda in it's treatment of women, which is just blatant and provably untrue. OR look at Samantha Powers, who compared the treatment of women in the United States to that of Afghanistan. And it's not like Samantha Powers is just some crazy nobody on tumblr, she's the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. Those are claims made by an anti-feminist, true, but I have fact checked them exhaustively. I'm taking people's word on what the atlas of the women of the world said, but I'm ordering the book for research for a book I'm writing, so I will likely be able to confirm that later.


Now, those examples are few and far between, and that is a VERY good thing. But I think calling it rape culture makes many feminists, specifically young feminists, feel that they face the same oppression as women in UAE and Saudi Arabia.

Again, this is largely arguing semantics, I have a tendency to do that, my best friend is a linguistics major. I just feel it's unfair and makes the cultures seem far too similar, whereas, with UAE, India, Saudi Arabia, most people would argue are on the same level.

And too be fair, I hear anti-feminists on reddit using strawman feminists arguments, but very rarely do I see people who present themselves as professionals or semiprofessionals not back up their claims with sources. (Sargon of Akkad, CH Sommers, Adam Buckley, etc.)
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 27 Jul 2015, 20:49

ccscheurman wrote:If we call the United States a rape culture, than it is fair to argue that every country in the world is a rape culture. If all countries are rape cultures, than in many people's eyes, no countries are rape cultures.


I don't know that anybody would say that no countries are rape cultures. And I do think that if we don't point out the systematic acceptance and brushing-under-the-rug of rape in the US, by calling it rape culture in some cases, people WILL think there is no rape problem in the US. We needed something to call the culture that allows and accepts more rape than it should. We called it rape culture. I don't see that that's very unreasonable.

Like... is a culture where Steubenville can happen, including the rape, the cover-up, the lack of indictment for some of the members, and the townspeoples' propensity to blame the girl, not a rape culture?
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 27 Jul 2015, 21:02

ccscheurman wrote:the Baltimore Sun actually does adjust for it.
If you're using the Sun as a source, I'm laughing. The Sun is a step up from a tabloid.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 27 Jul 2015, 21:04

Memo, considering the sun used the FBI as their source, I'm calling it legitimate.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 27 Jul 2015, 22:56

ccscheurman wrote:While I used Sommers as one source, this study was the main one, note, it's a pdf, so if you're using your phone their may be issues.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf


You may be right that she is referring to this study specifically, (which aggregates NCVS data from 1995-2013) but if that's the case, it remains that the comparison is not like-for-like. The study you have linked refers only to prevalence of rape among "college-age" women, and the NCVS data which this study uses as it's source refers to prevalence of criminal rape (reported or non-reported) within a given year. This particular study says nothing about lifetime rates of sexual assault.

The commonly cited 1:5 statistic is derived from the NISVS, and it refers to lifetime rates. The study you linked describes in detail how their methodologies differ, but the NISVS is a similarly rigorous survey (conducted in partnership with the Centre for Disease Control and the Department of Defence), collecting data with a slightly different public service intent.

The results of these studies tend to compliment, not contradict one another.


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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 09:24

Also, ccscheurman, I'd like to go back to something you said earlier, if you don't mind. What do you think cultural appropriation is? Because you listed learning a language as if it's something that people think is cultural appropriation.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 28 Jul 2015, 11:57

Matt, can I get a link to the study about 1-in-5 for lifetime? Because googling the "1-in-5 statistic" only turns up results for Campus rape stats. I will also link you to the sun Article that uses the FBI as a source, once I get on my computer later.

Similarly, I'm working on a book about modern feminism. So I will be crunching my own numbers using sexual crime trends and multiple studies from the US and Canada and plan to post my findings here. Regardless of whether they confirm 1-in-53 or 1-in-5.

Fayili,

Yeah, I can touch on that briefly. So, obviously, I understand what cultural appropriation is, I've attended seminars based on the subject.

To address the language thing. It's not common, but it's present. I'll see twitter/tumblr posts criticizing white people for learning other languages, primarily Japanese. Outside of tumblr "feminists". I've had (white) people tell me I shouldn't be trying to learn Algonquian (specifically Virginia Algonquian, the now extinct language of my tribe), until they find out I am native, it's not immediately obvious because I'm mixed race. Grant you, it's not common, but it's a problem when I've met people in the real world (Olympia, Washington) who think that way.

My bigger issue is people saying that Native American costumes or Kimono costumes are inappropriate. I'm Native and have zero problems with non-native people wesring native costumes, I have a good friend who is Japanese and he has no problem with the Kimono costumes, nor do people in his family. I am good friends with a pacific islander who thinks the concept of cultural appropriation being a problem is ridiculous. The only people I have met face to face who think cultural appropriation is a problem, are white. (Note, I'm not claiming only white people think it is a problem).

Another example of something similar, my best friend in college was African American, he drove his white girlfriend to a protest about Ferguson, but refused to participate in the protest, largely because he didn't feel racism was involved or the officer acted unjustly. He and I actually agreed that we are more offended by people outside our culture getting offended for us, than people outside our culture appropriating it.

Just because someone white wears a headdress or a kimono. It doesn't mean that our culture is erased. Quite the opposite, I'd rather my culture be remembered and honored as something cool than just forgotten and faded into obscurity. Now, if someone is wearing it and intends to mock the culture, than it's a problem, but as long as the intent is "I think this culture is neat, I like it a lot" then I have no problem with it.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 12:01

So far as I've ever seen, cultural appropriation is specifically the mockery, or the taking/wearing of something when you don't understand the context. See: War bonnets, etc.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby ccscheurman » 28 Jul 2015, 12:13

Yes, but, it's not right to assume someone doesn't know the history. Even if they don't, most people who wear costumes because they admire the culture are fine. It's not great, but it's certainly nothing to be upset over if their heart's in the right place.

For example, there was a museum that allowed people to wear kimonos as part of an exhibit on Japan. People protested this until the museum dropped the exhibit. If someone is at a museum, they likely want to learn about the culture. That's my issue, people blindly upset at white people "ruining" other cultures by wearing their stuff
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 12:34

I was actually reading a great post about that shared by Maki earlier today, which is what prompted my question to you. http://japaneseamericaninboston.blogspot.com/2015/07/monets-la-japonaise-kimono-wednesdays.html

The poster's general conclusion was that it WASN'T cultural appropriation on the whole, though the museum could have added more context.

I think, "it's certainly nothing to be upset over if their heart's in the right place" is something to be determined by the person getting hurt, though, not by us. Like, a white kid could grow up with a group of black kids, hear them calling each other the n word all the time, and use it because they do, not out of malice. And maybe the kids wouldn't mind. But if any of their parents or grandparents were hurt by a white kid blithely using a word that has a legacy of hatred, that's not a situation where you can just say, "Hey, chill, the kid didn't know." It's a situation where you say, "The kid intended no harm," and then you explain to the kid the history of the word, and why it's really not acceptable for most contexts.

A less charged example might, again, be the war bonnet, or a particular piece of clothing from a culture with a lot of significance and/or a very specialized use. I don't think it's okay to tell people who are deeply hurt by people grabbing bits of their history willy-nilly without regard to the historical context that they should just get over it. Especially given the European tendency to plunder everything they could get their hands on from India, Asia, and most other places they visit, and just use that as decoration in their homes because it was "exotic".

Look at the history of the hula dance. First it was a special thing, then it was denounced and all but banned, then it was commodified and commercialized.

I'm not saying every instance of crying "cultural appropriation" is right - a lot of white people who don't understand what they're talking about definitely have taken it too far, denouncing people who aren't visibly Indian for waring saris, even when invited to, etc. I'm just saying that cultural appropriation DOES exist, and we need to take the history of European colonialization into account when understanding why people might be hurt when white folks do things/take things without a good understanding of it.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 28 Jul 2015, 12:41

Fayili wrote:So far as I've ever seen, cultural appropriation is specifically the mockery, or the taking/wearing of something when you don't understand the context. See: War bonnets, etc.


To shift tracks wildly... war bonnets?

To explain- I'm a re-enactor, and we wear these padded garments underneath our helmets called arming caps. They help distribute and soften incoming blows. The alternative name for them is war bonnets (since it's impossible to wear one on its own without somewhat resembling a milkmaid).

I presume this isn't what you're referring to, but would you mind clarifying here?
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 12:44

Incredibly important and often spiritual pieces of Plains tribes culture in the US, that are sometimes worn for "sexy indian" Halloween costumes and offend a lot of native people when taken out of context in this way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_bonnet

Edit: More on the particular arguments against wearing them disrespectfully: http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby kiwijelly » 28 Jul 2015, 13:47

I feel as if we're getting off topic here- though offensive halloween costumes could probably be a thread all its own.
OT
I feel like talking semantics is a bit of an easy out. So many arguments about feminism have to do with the word feminism being somehow offensive, that people shouldn't call themselves that because it's been irrevocably tainted by ... well, something. I'd love to talk about what we believe rather than what our beliefs should be labeled.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 13:55

I don't really think that's off topic when we've been discussing it just fine for a little while now. Especially because one of the dangers of feminism is it getting co-opted by middle-class white women who ignore the needs of everyone else so long as they get what they think is enough.

And the discussion of what to call it has already spanned many, many pages at the inception of this thread.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby kiwijelly » 28 Jul 2015, 14:01

Fayili wrote: And the discussion of what to call it has already spanned many, many pages at the inception of this thread.

Exactly my point.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2015, 15:09

I feel like most of us have already said all we have to say, but w/e. *shrug*

Article about the reason women often leave the tech sector: https://medium.com/@racheltho/if-you-think-women-in-tech-is-just-a-pipeline-problem-you-haven-t-been-paying-attention-cb7a2073b996

Ignores nonbinary genders, as usual, but still interesting.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Duckay » 28 Jul 2015, 17:37

I know I posted it only a few pages ago, but this comic gave some examples of reasons people might not wish to identify as a feminist. I appreciate that it's more constructive to talk about what we believe and what we would ideally like to achieve than about what we call our structure of beliefs, but I'm also not entirely on board with those people who say things like "if you agree with me, you're a feminist, end of story", because that does dismiss a lot of experiences.

Or, in other words, if you're going to have a discussion about beliefs and not labels, that has to go for everyone, not as an excuse to tell people what they "should" be labeling their beliefs.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby kiwijelly » 28 Jul 2015, 17:51

I'll be back soon. I haven't gotten much sleep lately, (long story involving a leak, a biohazard team and several industrial fans) and I feel it is negatively impacting my ability to express myself. I'm sorry if I was rude. It's not my intention. Do-over?
PS. You're right. I have a bad habit of assuming people are the last comic example, rather than any of the others, especially online, which is part of the reason I like talking about ideas more.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 28 Jul 2015, 17:56

I'd seen that comic before, but it has clicked with me more this time, for some reason. It does seem, though, that the majority of people who don't like the label "feminist" with whom I have had further conversations, fall into the last category. I do tend to assume that's the case, but those assumptions seem to be (anecdotally) true more often than not.

There are some definite legitimate complaints about some parts of feminism (thought I really have limited experience). There are often aspects of racism to it, there are feminists who dismiss trans-women or deny that they are women at all, etc. But far more often, the objections I hear are the straw-feminist ones (Feminists want women to have more rights than men, etc).

It is kinda petty to argue over labels, but most of the time, the people objecting to feminism are only really objecting to the label anyway. It's frustrating for someone to basically say "I agree with you in every way, but I have a different meaning for that word, and I insist we use my meaning".
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