Feminism general thread

[Matt]

Matt, can I get a link to the study about 1-in-5 for lifetime?

The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey Reports site.

You can find the full reports linked in PDF from that site.

I'll link their 2 page fact sheet here.

Key findings:

In the most recent year of the survey (2010) 19.3% of women reported experiencing a rape in their lifetime.

1.6% of women reported being raped in the prior year.

That 1.6% figure aligns quite closely with the NCVS data, accounting for variance in methodologies and sample sizes and margins of error and so on. 1 in 53 is about 1.9%.

-m

[J_S_Bach]

Because Matt did not post it here is a link to list of verbatim used in the study he linked to http://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/24726 . I find that these lists help in adding context. I also recommend reading the methodology of the study.

[Deedles]

Not sure where else to put this, but I felt like it was food for thought when I stumbled across it on Tumblr.

This was my own contribution to the conversation -
"Yeah, my boyfriend has only ever really yelled at me once, in the 8 years that we’ve been together, and he says that it’s the only time he’s been able to see that I was about to cry(he, and as far as I know every other person I know, had never been able to tell this prior, because apparently I go stone-faced when I’m upset, probably a self-defense mechanism left from when I was bullied). And that was after him just raising his voice for… a couple of seconds. (He’s never done it again)"

I never thought it was something so wide spread among females, and finding out that there seems to be so many who have strong reactions when a man raises his voice at them I wondered what women(and men) on the forum thought/have experienced, etc.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

Hasn't happened to me much. But I get a reaction of wanting to cry and punch them simultaneously, I'm a man.

A woman rising her voice causes me to regress to a a 5 year old state.

Any gender, I start feeling more resentment towards them.
Sort of "How fucking dare you make me feel like shit." Revenge I suppose.

[Psyclone]

Honestly men don't even need to raise their voices to be terrifying. A lot of times it is, but I can usually separate between 'I'm really excited about this' or 'I'm calling to my friend who's over there' and something more threatening. There are things though where it's just immediate, like if a man raises his voice to get the attention of a customer service person or to interrupt someone.

More than that though it's if I can tell a man is angry. It could be totally quiet angry, but if I even think he might be I'm immediately scared. And I've never even really been the target of male anger; I just know so many people who have that it's instinctive for me as well.

[Duckay]

Personally, I don't find this to be the case for me. I'm not sure why, though I could speculate at length, but a raised voice from a man or woman doesn't affect me particularly in and of itself.

I believe the people saying that it's that terrifying to them, but I personally don't experience that.

I was going to speculate that perhaps it was due to past negative experiences, but I think Psyclone's post refutes that. I guess I'm just not sure why.

[Deedles]

Hasn't happened to me much. But I get a reaction of wanting to cry and punch them simultaneously, I'm a man.

A woman rising her voice causes me to regress to a a 5 year old state.

Any gender, I start feeling more resentment towards them.
Sort of "How fucking dare you make me feel like shit." Revenge I suppose.

Hmm, you do bring up an interesting thought. I wonder if the same reaction is common as well if it's a woman raising her voice at a man.

[Psyclone]

I wouldn't say my post necessarily refutes that, Duckay. I think for me it probably stems from the past experiences of people close to me and the fact that I'm a people-pleaser and I hate when anyone is angry regardless of gender, so the knowledge of those experiences makes men's anger hold extra weight..

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

Hasn't happened to me much. But I get a reaction of wanting to cry and punch them simultaneously, I'm a man.

A woman rising her voice causes me to regress to a a 5 year old state.

Any gender, I start feeling more resentment towards them.
Sort of "How fucking dare you make me feel like shit." Revenge I suppose.

Hmm, you do bring up an interesting thought. I wonder if the same reaction is common as well if it's a woman raising her voice at a man.

It's how I was brought up.
My mum was very much the disciplinary parent between her and dad. Dad would just punch me instinctively if I was hurting him too much (don't ask, mum would tell him off for striking me in that way. Clearly mum smacking me on my arse was fine, but being gut punched as unacceptable physical contact).

Always had female teachers at school (aged 3 to 11).

My sister is as volatile as my mum.
-
So yeah. Man's raised voice pisses me off.
Woman's raised voice makes me feel like a child, then I get pissed off for being made to feel like that.

Sort of an empath. Would be nice if I acquired people's joy more often however. Sucks that it's easier for me to replicate people's negative emotions or sadness.

[betsytheripper]

I have to say that knowing that a man is angry - especially if he is larger than me - terrifies me. Even if I know he is not angry at me. Because I'm terrified that suddenly that anger will be directed at me. This is also especially distressing when it's a man I know that is always patient and gentle, and suddenly furious at something. It leaves me forever terrified that he'll "snap" and come after me.

I also have the inherent fear that men can and will likely hurt me. Even without realizing it. I have no illusions that I'm physically capable of fending off an attack of any kind.

So I would conclude it's not necessarily a raised voice thing, but a voice raised in anger is, yeah, terrifying to me.

[fantôme]

This is distressing. I've known men that were violent and I've known woman that were violent, but I've never been generally afraid of a raised voice leading to violence from the average person. Most men are not violent creatures, is woman's opinion of man so poor that we're tarnished inherently as such? Not that there isn't historical social reason for men to be thought of as bad people - but not all men, and what does this say about the future of equality if there is such fundamental distrust?

[korvys]

That we need to work to earn back the trust lost by our forebears, and contemporaries, something that is not easy or quick. You say "not all men", but it's enough for this to be a sentiment shared by many here, so maybe it's more than you think? In any case, we need to be careful that the focus not be "there are so few violent men, women should not be scared" and instead "there are enough violent men to make women scared, there should be even less". (And, yes, violent women scaring men, but that's not the topic).

As for me, I do raise my voice when arguing, and it's something I'm working on. Arguments tend to involve people interrupting each other, and my natural reaction to being interrupted is to speak more forcefully to make myself heard, but it's not really helpful, and causes even more negativity.

[Psyclone]

I should say that as a person who is slowly moving towards probably transitioning, I'm having to unlearn a lot of things and really focus on the privilege I would gain and how to navigate that, and one of those things is not raising my voice, especially in anger. I tend to do the same thing as you, korvys, and while as someone who is read as female it's often necessary to make myself heard, as someone who is read as male it would be less appropriate.

[betsytheripper]

On the "not all men" sentiment, clearly, that's true. Whatever you're responding to with "but not all men", yes, you're right. But you should know that it's more like "but it could be any man". Any man you know or don't know. For me personally, I've been conditioned to expect to fear for my safety when alone, because any man could decide that I am his for the taking. I've been conditioned to freeze up, "play dead", or soothe by any means necessary when there's an angry man around me, because any man could snap and suddenly I could be the target. Even if it's someone I've known for years, and they've never been physically violent.

It's never all men. That's absurd. But any man can be a threat.

[fantôme]

That's the fundamental distrust that I find distressing: I don't believe that any man can be a threat, because not every man is capable of violence. I base this belief on the only solid foundation one can ever really have - that I'm not capable of violence.

Perhaps my mindset is misguided and impossible, but equality will only ever work if both sides treat each other equally.

[korvys]

fantôme, you say not every man is capable of violence. Well, if you can work out a way to tell the men that are capable of violence from the ones that aren't, I'm sure we'd love to hear it. Because some absolutely are, and the consequences for getting it wrong are severe.

[fantôme]

Trust. Based on knowledge of the person. The tumblr conversation snapshot that kicked this discussion off referred to men that these people knew. Just because some men have the potential for violence doesn't mean that all men should be treated as such. I've gotten it wrong before, I know what the consequences can be: I've been hurt and betrayed in ways that have substantially changed my emotional state, as have we all. But I try to keep my faith.

[korvys]

To trust, and be hurt, and trust again, is an admirable quality. But I'll not fault anyone who can't manage it.

[Deedles]

I'm not even sure I'd chalk it down to a trust issue alone. It feels like being cautious of men becomes a common sense thing, especially since we do get conditioned to it "Don't walk in dark placed alone", "Don't wear clothes like that or you could get raped.", "Why were you alone with a man?", etc. Because of society's habit of victim-blaming we get groomed into being overly cautious and fearful.

[Psyclone]

I remember as a child being told by my parents and self defense instructors that if I was lost I should approach a woman for help, and if I couldn't find a woman I should look for a man with young children. An adult man without children was an absolute last resort. When I was around 12 or 13, adults started telling me not to engage with catcallers - to keep my head down and keep walking, not to talk back and not to anger them. (It wasn't the most helpful of advice, but it was well-intentioned.)

The adults who told me these things, with the exception of my mother, were all men.

Of course later, when I was a little older and had been approached on the street or yelled at from cars and could share those experiences, other women would commiserate and share tips, but my formative distrust of men was taught to me by men. It's not just a lack of trust on the part of women (and anyone else who isn't a cis man); men don't trust men either. If they say "not all men" while simultaneously telling young girls not to trust any men, what does that say about the idea of "not all men"?

[Duckay]

This reminds me of something that happened a couple of weeks ago. My friend's mother well-meaningly took me out to get my Christmas present, which as it turned out was she was going to get my ears pierced for me. She told me I wasn't allowed to say no. I know that no doubt sounds very petty to you all, but it was actually a really difficult and emotional experience for me.

For one thing, it brought me back to my childhood where I was frequently told I had to act/look more feminine otherwise I would be bringing negative experiences on myself. As I'm sure you all know, though, as I grew up I realized that the messages coming in from other places are that if I act/look too feminine, I'll be bringing on the same negative experiences. (Baggy jeans make me "look like a lesbian" thus encouraging men to pay attention to me, but tight jeans mean I want men to look at me because I'm dressing sexy for male attention).

This argument with my friend's mother about the pierced ears just brought me back to a lot of these memories and the unfortunate understanding that if something happens to me, no matter what I did to get there, someone will find a way to make it my fault. Damn, that's shitty.

[Dutch guy]

Being scared of any shouting man didn't at first really make that much sense to me until I recently realised that as a 6 foot tall man I'm not really in a position to judge. Most women I encounter are however (a lot) shorter than I am. Thinking back to how it felt getting shouted at by a larger person as a child I can imagine what that extra dimension adds. Shouting usually means a person is angry and an angry person that is also physically stronger is just intimidating. So yeah, I can see where you are coming from now.

[JustAName]

So I just realized something while watching one of Cam's XCAM streams: I think my reaction to (especially male) anger is twofold.

The first facet is that, yes, violence from the individual is a thread, but so is general meanness and cruelty. I know that Cameron isn't going to somehow reach through the screen and threaten me, but when people are angry, I fear that they are more likely to react poorly to anything said or misinterpret (willfully or not) any comment.

Which leads to the second point: I, like many women, have been socialized to be a nurturer. I don't actually want to have kids - pregnancy scares me a lot - but I want people to be generally happy and well around me. So if someone near me is angry, I have dual impulses of wanting to help, and wanting to hide. Wanting to help is from that socialization, and wanting to hide is from experience - that the individual may snap at me and say hurtful things, or whirl around on the spot and be physically intimidating because they're upset that I'm trying to help.

Angry people are frightening. Angry men more so, possibly because I have less personal experience with them, and so most of my assumptions are founded on TV and other media, where angry men are often violent.

[korvys]

Read a couple of things in the last few days that seemed like they'd fit here.

First, something short, but related to our most recent line of discussion
https://medium.com/life-tips/to-men-i-love-about-men-who-scare-me-dd816cd02e33#.udqsdrozb

Second, a longer, very interesting piece about warrior women, in history, and in stories, and how those stories change our perception of reality.
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/

[JustAName]

A friend of mine posted this and talked a bit about her rape. https://medium.com/@emmalindsay/what-i-learned-from-dating-women-who-have-been-raped-583e1001b6cd#.mvgyvtpnb And maybe the sad thing? The exhausting thing? I didn't know about her rape, but I'm not surprised. All my female friends have been raped. This is becoming more and more clear. Every few weeks I'll learn about a new one. I'm tired of it.