You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

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Elaro
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You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 02 Jul 2016, 09:59

There's a hay-penny in it for you if you do!

Hey, Bradley! I have a way to compose music very quickly, but I have very little in the way of music education. I'm thinking, you and I, we skype for a couple hours one day, and suddenly we get enough music for all of Desert Bus 10! What say you?

If you want to know how I manage this, basically: maths. You tell me a melody, I'll try to figure out a formula that fits it, and then we make mathematical variations on it.

I did this in a morning. Think you can help me make more?

https://soundcloud.com/elaro/circular-study-v-2
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby type_omega » 02 Jul 2016, 11:44

are your maths taking into account a root key for its algorithms ? I only ask because there are some pretty glaring off key parts in that sample provided. playing off key can sometimes be used to build tension in a song but it is generally a good idea to avoid. what i would do with the above sample is to throw it in FL's Edison and chop our 3 to 5 clunks that are all in key and turn them into loops then lay some beats and a bassline over it. o and maybe torch the pipe organ and use something like a Moog or a grand p.

side note :best pipe organ tune ever ... still gives me chills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa2EOLyn6-4
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Elaro
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 02 Jul 2016, 12:51

No, the algorithm does have "a" root key, what you're hearing is akin to E and F being played at the same time in the C major key. It can happen in any key. I could make sure that it never happens, it would just involve some math which I wasn't in the mood for doing (actually, this is the "final" version; the ones preceding it actually were off-key, and it sounded much more awful than this.)

Here's another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2m2wv5pPs4
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 13 Jul 2016, 04:05

Hmm, 99 views on this thing and nobody's fetched Bradley Rains! I'm starting to think bribing people with hay-pennies doesn't work!

Oh well.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Jamfalcon » 13 Jul 2016, 08:20

Perhaps you would have more luck reaching out to him on Twitter. ;)
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Elaro
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 13 Jul 2016, 11:02

No... no! I can't go back!
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Robo4900 » 18 Jul 2016, 09:31

If you aren't on Twitter, I could try shooting him a Tweet pointing to this thread?
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 19 Jul 2016, 17:59

Please do, thanks.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby bradleyrains » 22 Jul 2016, 13:12

Whew. Ok. So many feelings. Bear with me.

I hate to be a downer here, but with that phrase you already know where I'm going with this. Please whatever you do, don't let me abate your enthusiasm for music, or music by numbers, or indeed anything. Live your own life! Go your own way! :D Remember this is just the opinions of one guy.

I can't express enough how much of a bad idea this is in so many ways. Chief among which is the idea that one should score all of DB. I encounter this attitude a lot in my dealings with clients. So many of them think that absolutely every second of everything should be scored all the time. That is a perfect way to get people to stop listening. It's like listening to the ocean. It's nice for a few minutes. But after that, everything becomes a wash, and psychologically people tune it out very quickly. Within minutes. After that, if they even notice it at all, it becomes a nuisance.

So it is not in my best interest as a composer to want everything scored all the time. Not when I want people to listen to my music and pay attention to it.

Another major problem with your idea is the concept of quality verses quantity. Do you honestly think that with 150 hours of music made that quickly there will be any quality at all? I haven't made 150 hours worth of music in my lifetime. Almost no one has. With the possible exception of Paul McCartney. Or Keith Richards. And Macca or Keith I ain't!

A long time ago I had to adopt a quality first policy, which means though I may put out a smaller amount of music, I would be absolutely happy with what I put out and it would stand the test of time, critics, etc. The clients like it better (so I get more repeat business), the fans listen to it more, I'm happier, everyone wins.

Then there's the sheer logistics of what your asking for here. It most certainly is not "a couple hours one day, and suddenly we get enough music for all of Desert Bus 10!" Quality takes time. A lot of it. Ask any true craftsman.

Take the intro for the Limited Resources podcast for example. That took a week. Yes, a week for 48 seconds. Why? Because I'm only one man, and I only have one brain to draw from, and because you don't hear the other three demos I made for the client. You only hear that one because that's one he picked.

I wish more than anything people could see the amount of effort that goes into making the music they love. If they could see that, they wouldn't ask for 150 hours of music by Thanksgiving, and they wouldn't ask for it for free. It's insulting to us, the craftsman of this world, to have people come up to us and ask us for our best work faster than humanly possible and for free. I'm willing to believe you just made a naive mistake. No problem. That's fine. But you should realize how often this happens to me, and indeed, to all freelance composers.

The other glaring problem with your idea is that you should use maths and numbers to make these 150 hours of music. Now, at least superficially, I have no problem with music by math if the math is good enough. I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords. But the idea that anything tuneful, soulful, or with any heart or feeling can be made by a computer is, I'm sorry to say, years from being realized.

You say you have very little in the way of music education? Take a moment to read about one Arnold Schoenberg. He practically invented what it is you say you're doing. Pay particular attention to the criticism section. I studied a lot about Schoenberg at multiple universities, and I can assure you, that article is grossly understating it when they say people "have passionately reacted against" him.

At least on paper, I like Schoenberg. I think he's responsible for many of the great things of 20th century music, like horror film soundtracks and the career of James Blunt. But there's a time and a place for everything. And DB is not the time or place for his brand, or indeed any brand of atonal math-based music.

So you may well ask why haven't I been a part of DB? Why hasn't Bradley Rains contributed any music to DB? The simple answer is I have tried to and failed in the past, and then I realized they don't need me. DB is its own separate entity from LRR. DB gets along perfectly fine without me. And then I can do what I love to do which is just be a spectator like you lot.

So I'm sorry, I must decline your offer. I hope I've made myself clear in some way about why, even though I really do feel like I've just scratched the surface here. If you want to talk more about it, email me sometime (bradley at bradleyrains dot com).

TL;DR
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Elaro
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 22 Jul 2016, 14:39

Because I don't want you to feel insulted, nor do I want to offend anyone reading this, I want to clarify that I'm not asking you, Bradley Rains, to produce 150 hours of music. I am asking you to inspire me with 4 melodies of music, each lasting no more than 8 measures, all the chords that go well with them, and maybe up to 7 ideas for variations on those themes. Then I would've extrapolated formulas that produce each theme, which I would've then instructed my mathemodeon to calculate 6 hours of for each theme, times 7 variations, which would've produced more than enough music for all of Desert Bus.

I'm not stupid, I recognize that no one can make 150 hours of music by human hands alone. I'm not trying to devalue either your craft or your craftsmanship. I'm just that confident in the power of this technological terror marvel I've constructed.

Again, it was never my intent to insult you.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby J_S_Bach » 22 Jul 2016, 14:50

Elaro wrote:I am asking you to inspire me with 4 melodies of music, each lasting no more than 8 measures, all the chords that go well with them, and maybe up to 7 ideas for variations on those themes.



That's a lot to ask for.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 22 Jul 2016, 15:28

Really? I think we can hash the 4 melodies in <3 hours, all the chords might take 15-30 minutes total (i'm just asking for root and chord number) and the 7 variations (well, actually it's just 6) are just descriptions like "play it backwards", "apply symmetry to it", "apply a rotation to it", and so on.

Honestly, I was ready to say that I needed 4 melodies of 15-20 notes each. "8 measures" (or 2 bars, really) was just to give him room.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby bradleyrains » 22 Jul 2016, 15:55

J_S_Bach wrote:
Elaro wrote:I am asking you to inspire me with 4 melodies of music, each lasting no more than 8 measures, all the chords that go well with them, and maybe up to 7 ideas for variations on those themes.



That's a lot to ask for.


This.


"Really?"

Yes! Really. Seriously, did you read my post? You are asking me to work for you for free. Actually, you're asking me to "inspire" you (whatever the hell that means) for free. Apparently that is the value of my work to you.

Think about it. Would you ask a furniture maker to build you a beautiful Makassar Ebony end table for free? Would you ask a mechanic to replace your clutch and flywheel for free? What makes me any different? By simply asking me to "inspire" you without offering to pay is deeply insulting. It proves you place no value upon me or my work.

So no. I will not work for you for free. To be honest, to work for you, I'd have to charge double or even triple, because you sound like the kind of customer that would be quite demand-y and hover over me like the proverbial Damocledian Black Hawk.

You should know better. I gave you the benefit of a doubt before. I thought maybe you typed before you thought. No problem. Happens to the best of us. But now I see I was wrong.

I'm done talking about this. I have nothing more to say to you.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby J_S_Bach » 22 Jul 2016, 16:15

Elaro wrote:Really? I think we can hash the 4 melodies in <3 hours, all the chords might take 15-30 minutes total (i'm just asking for root and chord number) and the 7 variations (well, actually it's just 6) are just descriptions like "play it backwards", "apply symmetry to it", "apply a rotation to it", and so on.

Honestly, I was ready to say that I needed 4 melodies of 15-20 notes each. "8 measures" (or 2 bars, really) was just to give him room.



That sounds like it's heading dangerously close to the argument of the difference of sound and music.

If you want to try making your own melodies, I recommend starting with the mixolydian mode and use the chord progressions I IV I V and/or I IV II V
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby AdmiralMemo » 22 Jul 2016, 18:01

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Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Elaro » 27 Jul 2016, 19:27

OK, this is the last thing I'll say about this:

1) I'm not asking you to work FOR me. I inquired as to whether you would be interested in contributing half a day's worth of your expertise a CHARITY PROJECT for a CHARITY, and you refused. That's fine. The point is, if you were WORKING FOR me, I'd be making money of your work, and OBVIOUSLY I'd pay you. I am not the kind of man to kill the goose that lays his golden eggs. And honestly, I would pay you more than a flat sum, the royalties would be equally split if I was feeling greedy that day. I know the value of creative work, Mr. Rains. Don't take me for a fool.

2) I don't know how long it takes to compose melodies. I assumed that writing music was a bit like writing a story, with each note being a word. Using that as a metric, I thought 4-5 hours would be sufficient. If it isn't, I'm sorry, blame my inexperience.

3)The mathemodeon is a process/program/device that allows composers to compose music in less-than-linear time. It takes more planning, yes, but the composition time is practically zilch, so you can listen to the first draft of a piece almost as soon as you finish planning it.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Psyclone » 27 Jul 2016, 21:03

I'd let it go, man. You're just digging yourself deeper.
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby AdmiralMemo » 27 Jul 2016, 21:45

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Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby JustAName » 28 Jul 2016, 11:47

I know you want to be understood, and you hate being thought of as inconsiderate. BUT. The way in which you are defending yourself here is very aggressive and abrasive, and harming more than it is helping.

You think that you've created a neat thing, and that's wonderful! Bradley made some very good points about Schoenberg, however, and if you didn't at least look into him after that post, you really should. This isn't to say that what you've done is destined not to work! It just means that an experienced composer is dubious of something that sounds, to him, too good to be true.

And yes, I can safely say that any creative with experience under their belt in an (often rough) field does not want to do any work for free, even for the best of situations. It can set a dangerous precedent, even if it goes super well! Also, composing something that you are personally willing to pass along to a client (and before you say you wouldn't be a client in this scenario; in that instance he's collaborating on a labor of love and would be even more invested) is going to take time, no matter what. Sure, I can knock out 300 words of shitty satire in half an hour, but working on something I want to make sure goes over well? That's going to take a couple days at least, not to mention all the fretting going into it.

So here's what you do. You find someone else who does want to collaborate with you. You make something really cool! Then you share it around, and prove to Bradley what a good idea you had. Otherwise, you take it back to the drawing board, and try again.

I have faith in you, and I know you didn't want to rub anyone the wrong way. Right now, however, apologising without offering excuses is the best way forward. Then you can let your creation speak for itself.

Best of luck!
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Re: You there, boy! Go fetch me Bradley Rains

Postby Anaerin » 17 Sep 2016, 15:04

Alternatively, you stand on the shoulders of giants. Those who have already trodden the road you're looking at. For instance: http://www.soundhelix.com which has a venerable lineage all the way back to the Amiga.

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