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Postby empath » 29 Nov 2007, 10:42

Look, I'm certain, before even seeing the PAST season let alone the upcoming one, that bringing Rose back will be STUPID, poorly-conceived (heh) and essentially going against more than half-a-century of canon: the Doctor and his Companions don't 'get it on'!!!!!1!11-one-one-one!!! :P

Heck, it didn't work with Victoria, it didn't work with Jo, it didn't work in the entirety of The McGann Debacle and it's not going to work with 'Chav-tastic' here! (and I liked Rose...as a Companion)

Heck, if they want a romance for The Last Time Lord, why don't they break Romana out of E-space! If they're going to rip holes in dimensional barriers, they can do this!^1

Heck, if they want dross for writing, get Sarah Jane and K-9 back 'in the box' and absorb the spin-off. (has The Sarah Jane Chronicles gotten off the ground yet?)

As for any site having 'all' the episodes, I direct you here , unless you think nothing happened in this show before Tom Baker. ;)

To get all meta-geeky, "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of Whovians cried out, and stopped watching, all at once."

I mean....ARRRGHHH! This is just wrong - more wrong than retconning Han vs. Greedo and Anakin Skywalker's ghost, more wrong than the 'intestines on the forehead'^2 for Klingons, ver.2.0! C'mon, yes they're called "Companions", but they're not companions if you catch my drift [nudge-nudge, wink-wink]

Oh, I just can't...ugh!
*storms off fuming*


Footnotes (said I was long-winded and an anal-retentive Grammar Nazi)
-----------
1. To take a page from Yahtzee, if this comes to pass in a future storyline: "I just want to go on record as saying 'I <censored> called it!'"
2. Heck, that's what MICHAEL DORN calls the prosthesis he had to wear, so I think we can agree it's suitable terminology for the 'genetic revision.' :)
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Postby CyberTractor » 29 Nov 2007, 11:15

empath wrote:As for any site having 'all' the episodes, I direct you here , unless you think nothing happened in this show before Tom Baker. ;)


Well, a site with all of last seasons episodes would work just as well. <_<
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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 16:57

emma wrote:42? Human Nature? Family of Blood?

THE ENTIRE 3-PART FINALE???

Seriously, people.


Lame, lame and more lame.

"Doctor Who" was always known for its cheesy special effects and (mostly) excellent writing. Now we have better special effects and cheesy writing.

The whole season was like "Torchwood"'s first season all over again. Aimless, not thought-out, and arbitrary.
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Postby emma » 29 Nov 2007, 17:01

I fully one hundred percent disagree with you. I saw no problem with the writing of this season. I enjoyed every minute of it.
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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 17:40

The Lazarus Experiment?

42?

Talk to me about the end of "A Family of Blood".
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Postby emma » 29 Nov 2007, 18:09

I wasn't terribly impressed with the Lazarus Experiment.

42 was awesome.

I just watched Family of Blood today, realizing that I had never actually finished watching it (I don't know how that happened) and it almost made me cry.



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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 18:13

emma wrote:42 was awesome.


42 was stupid. They took a good idea and made it totally dumb. It made no sense, emma.

I just watched Family of Blood today, realizing that I had never actually finished watching it (I don't know how that happened) and it almost made me cry.


It made no sense, emma!
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Postby emma » 29 Nov 2007, 18:18

Why did it make no sense?

As someone who studies this sort of thing, I understand that sometimes yes, the writing on the show is not amazing. But I see no problem with the end of 42 - I thought it had a pretty good ending.

And I really, really enjoyed Family of Blood. It had a lot of character development for both the Doctor and for Martha, and it was really interesting.
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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 18:23

emma wrote:As someone who studies this sort of thing, I understand that sometimes yes, the writing on the show is not amazing. But I see no problem with the end of 42 - I thought it had a pretty good ending.


The end? No part of 42 made sense, emma. Why would the fragments of the star pulled out of its corona inhabit human bodies? Why would it try to kill everyone? Why would it insist everyone burn with it? It was dumbb.

And I really, really enjoyed Family of Blood. It had a lot of character development for both the Doctor and for Martha, and it was really interesting.


The end fates for the Family were ridiculous, and the bit about WWI was both tacked-on and incomplete.
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Postby emma » 29 Nov 2007, 18:44

Sorry, misread - but seriously, that is your complaint? By that argument, nothing in Doctor Who has ever been any good. Of course it was dumb! It's Doctor Who! That is not a good argument at all, dude. "Why" is not a question that should be asked of the premise of science fiction or fantasy, but of the resolution. If you ask "Why" then you question everything. You are not questioning the writing, you are questioning the idea. While they are intrinsically connected, they are slightly different.

I think your argument is sort of silly, is what I'm say.

I still loved both of those episodes.
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Postby The Hitman » 29 Nov 2007, 18:50

I think the writing has been pretty up and down throughout all three seasons, actually.

The Steven Moffat episodes have been really strong, by and large, but some of the other episodes have been kind of awkward. By far the worst part has been the tendency to have narration about things that are happening rather than actually showing what was going on, which has actually ruined a few otherwise great episodes. On the other hand, while a few of the episodes have been kind of embarrassing, the good ones have been pretty excellent.

As for 'canon,' keep in mind that retelling stories is pretty much part of human nature, so you can get the fuck over it now or continue to embarrass yourself.
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Postby emma » 29 Nov 2007, 19:01

I agree that narrations are stupid.

I don't really like narrations that much ever, I find they are generally always sort of stupid. I am so used to forgetting about them, though.
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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 19:13

emma wrote:Sorry, misread - but seriously, that is your complaint? By that argument, nothing in Doctor Who has ever been any good.


No! Doctor Who has had fantastic bits. Interspersed with a lot of corniness and cheese, certainly, but many of the episodes have had thought-provoking stories and superbly-written and -delivered dialog.

The reboot of the Doctor Who franchise has been uneven at best, and this past season particularly weak.

Part of the beauty of the series is that it explicitly rejects the concept of canon, and continuity isn't an issue.

But it's a privilege that must be used carefully and not abused. They've been abusing it.
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Postby Citin » 29 Nov 2007, 19:58

You know sometimes when watching Sci-Fi you just have to sort of "Suspend your disbelief" so you can just sit back and enjoy the show
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Postby The Pious Flea » 29 Nov 2007, 20:15

Citin wrote:You know sometimes when watching Sci-Fi you just have to sort of "Suspend your disbelief" so you can just sit back and enjoy the show


I turn my brain off for no one. Science fiction can be done well. It can also be done poorly. I will not make excuses for poor storytelling just because it's science fiction.
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Postby emma » 30 Nov 2007, 01:40

there is a huge differnce between suspension OF DISBELIEF and bad writing








too drunk to argue but its true.


i really dont' think this is an aagrument, i just think that we have differing opinions on what makes good television
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Postby CheeseGrater » 30 Nov 2007, 01:48

Believe it or not, most revival Doctor Who episodes are uploaded in 5 parts on Youtube -- the viedo quality is poor, of course, but definately watchable.

"re15re" has a lot, as well as some other users. And there are lots available on veoh.com if your computer can take it. :)

And I agree with emma on this one: I feel that the writing for all three seasons has been super entertaining and extremely enjoyable to watch. It's like watching a musical; sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief.
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Postby The Hitman » 30 Nov 2007, 03:50

emma wrote:i really dont' think this is an aagrument, i just think that we have differing opinions on what makes good television


Man, this isn't much of an aagrument!

Seriously, though, I tend to be pretty picky with writing, and the new Doctor Who has both seriously impressed me and made me cringe. Personally, I'd rather have that than another entirely bland television show, but I can also see how picking through the episodes for the gems could kind of sour you on the whole prospect.

Anyway, the next person who talks about suspending your disbelief is going to get some words. Telling someone to accept something they feel is of poor quality 'for fun' is terrible advice.
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Postby empath » 30 Nov 2007, 05:55

Well, I prefer to use the full Coleridge term "willing suspension of disbelief", which can be explained as:
the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible


As such, a work of science fiction's underlying fantastic premise (time travel, perhaps?) would be believed for the purposes of the storytelling, but a continually inconsistent storyline, or sheer poor storytelling abuses this courtesy given to the author/writer by the audience.

So...IMO, both Pious and emma are right? :?

And as for people implying "Doctor + Companion + chica-chicha-bow-wow = BAD" is Doctor Who 'canon'^1, you jump to a conclusion with the aid of the springboard of my obtuseness; I never said this was an unwritten LAW of the millieu, it is merely my opinion...which I never clarified as such. :(

*I* never liked story-lines that involved the Doctor romantically with his Companions; to me a Time Lord hooking up with a simple little human...I dunno...almost feels like pedophilia :shock: - his human Companions are as children in the big, wide, dangerous universe he's taking them to see. On the other hand, someone who's the Doctor's intellectual equal (and preferably the same species to keep from squicking a surprising puritan side I didn't know I had) may well add a fascinating dynamic to the story as a love interest...again, idle speculation.

But Doc+Jo? Doc+Victoria? Many of my friends have have expressed their opinions on such story elements in a manner that can be summarized as "EWWWW!!!", but an IRL circle of ppl can hardly be considered significant enough to set down unwritten rules within a community...unless that circle were the writers. ;)

But me? I'm a fan, no more influential than anyone else that can look up BBC Wales' mailing address and send in a letter addressed to Mr. Davies asking "please talk about X/don't do Y/are we ever going to see Z again" - I do not delude myself over the weight of my opinions, no matter how RIGHT they are! :lol:

Hmmmm....actually....

"From 'empath'
To: Russell T. Davies, c/o BBC Wales
Re: Romana..."

(Also I'd like to see the return of the Master - planned for the upcoming series - treat him as the capable, flexible and intelligent nemesis he is, and not just a 'penny dreadful villian' my Inner Cynic™ is expecting him to be downgraded to. :? )


footnote:
1. Doctor Who canonicity? Isn't that one of those terms that can only be used in the negative or speculative senses? A story that involves time travel is eventually GOING to start 'rewriting history' of previous events - that's one of the hooks of the story element. See Wiki:Whoniverse

Mind you, you can take it too far; I've seen plenty of fanfic of various properties that essentially retcons out something that the fan-writer didn't like in the 'canon' storyline. That smacks me as rude to put something out in public that essentially says - invariably without overt explanation as such in 'authors notes/etc' - "I think <original author> effed up/did a poor job/is an asshat and I can do better with <storyline elements> as follows..."
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Postby brittwynn » 30 Nov 2007, 07:09

The Pious Flea wrote:Blink. Most sophisticated story and plot development thus far, and although the monsters themselves carried on the tradition of cheesiness, the way they were handled was masterful.


Blink creeped the bejesus out of me, specially since i was spending time in europe after that surrounded by beautiful cemetaries and churches full of creepy statues, my sister and I were on weeping angel watch the entire time.

In other news we were in Wales while they were filming the Christmas special, and I would be lying if i said we didn't try to stalk david tennant a little... didn't get to see him, but we did get to see (and touch!) his costumes at the Doctor Who exhibit in Cardiff *swoon!* Very Arthur Dent!
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Postby Mouse » 30 Nov 2007, 08:02

emma wrote:THE ENTIRE 3-PART FINALE???


42 is awesome and one of my favorites. The fact that it was one of the first times that Martha got to save the day and we saw the Doctor really vunerable just made it great for me.

Same goes for Family of Blood.

But THE 3-PART FINALE--Going to disagree on this one. I didn't find it that good. They could have gone a whole lot darker and still had it been acceptable for a family show and didn't. Also, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it but it seemed like they tried a bit too hard. Like you could see them trying to be so amazing and they just missed the mark.
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Postby emma » 30 Nov 2007, 09:02

The Hitman wrote:Man, this isn't much of an aagrument!


Shut your face.

The Hitman wrote:Anyway, the next person who talks about suspending your disbelief is going to get some words. Telling someone to accept something they feel is of poor quality 'for fun' is terrible advice.


I will admit I brought it up earlier, but I didn't say 'for fun'. I just think that good writing and good sci-fi elements are not always the same thing. You can have one without the other in an episode, or you can have or lack both.


This aagrument sounded a lot better in my head.
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Postby The Hitman » 30 Nov 2007, 12:57

emma wrote:Shut your face.


That's cold, emma.

emma wrote:I will admit I brought it up earlier, but I didn't say 'for fun'. I just think that good writing and good sci-fi elements are not always the same thing. You can have one without the other in an episode, or you can have or lack both.


Too true! Most of the science fiction greats, from Asimov to Herbert, were pretty awful writers: it was their ideas which were engaging. It's kind of a hallmark of science fiction, really.

I really dislike it, however, when people are asked arbitrarily to suspend their disbelief. Obviously no one likes a spoilsport, but I hate this tendency to assume that, if you think something is crummy, you just weren't 'trying' hard enough to enjoy it. I watched the first episode of Torchwood with some friends, and at the end I actually felt embarrassed for suggesting such a painfully terrible show.

Sometimes it's not a bad idea to cut an author some slack, everyone has their ideas which don't turn out nearly as well as they had hoped. Some days you make Ziggy Stardust and other days you end up with Diamond Dogs. On the other hand, it's also possible to cut someone too much slack and end up mired in mediocrity. As with most things, it's easy to point out extreme examples, but sometimes hard to find the dividing line.



'Empath,' did you really just, in all seriousness, post a Wiki entry on 'The Whoniverse?' Are you posting with footnotes?

empath wrote:Mind you, you can take it too far


MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

In closing, here is my own letter to Russell T. Davies.

From Rodriguez 'Paco' Camino, Amateur Sleuth and Nobel Laureate
To: Russell T. Davies, c/o BBC Wales
Re: CHEAP-Rx-Monkeydishwasher

Dear Rusty D, is it all right if I call you Rusty D?

Anyway, Mr. D, I think we all understand by now that you have read the Myth of Sisyphus. Does that mean you will stop doing science fiction remakes of The Seventh Seal?

Yours in Christ,

Guadalupe 'Bones' Hernando.
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Postby Lacerta » 30 Nov 2007, 13:43

emma wrote:I'm sorry, but did anyone even WATCH that season?

42? Human Nature? Family of Blood?

THE ENTIRE 3-PART FINALE???

Seriously, people.


The 1st part of the finale looked promising, then it all went to crap with the worst writing I've seen on the series so far.

42 and Human Nature were great though.
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Postby brittwynn » 30 Nov 2007, 13:46

If you want to talk about bad: Torchwood. Discuss.
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