LRRcast - Star Wars

Talk about this week's LRRcast and what you'd like to see in future ones.
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Graham
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LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Graham » 28 Jan 2016, 17:02

Do you have opinions about Star War: The Force Awakens? 'Cause Ian, Cam and Graham sure do! In case it isn't obvious, SPOILER WARNING!
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby theycallmejokke » 28 Jan 2016, 18:54

Can't seem to get this LRRcast to load, any one else having the same problem, or is it on my end?
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Bergie » 28 Jan 2016, 21:47

It seems to work through youtube but not the lrr site.

I had two MAJOR problems with TFA, but unlike Abrams Trek it wasn't enough to ruin the movie for me. One was the fact that we apparently can see the destruction of the Republic capital tens of thousands of light years away. I understand for the sake of plot WHY it was done (to be the "shit just got real" moment for all the characters at the same time), but I still found it terrible.

The other was that the movie seems 15 minutes too short and seemed like it all took place in an afternoon. There weren't as many slow-paced pace setting moments as I thought it needed. Having some character moments with Finn and Rey on the Falcon before Han and Chewie came so it didn't seem it took them 2 minutes to find them.

To be honest, Starkiller base also bugged me because it seemed like a stupid design to me vs the death star, but as you guys pointed out they are Imperial Cosplayers, and are going for the cool over tactical because, while dangerous, they aren't experienced yet.
Last edited by Bergie on 29 Jan 2016, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Dandinstorm12 » 28 Jan 2016, 23:58

Paul is the hero we deserve. My only complaint about TFA was that Snoak (Snoke?) looked....bad. He felt out of scale, and not imposing and not enough like a villain, now if that was the point than I think there are some communication issues. However, TFA was awesome.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Drendar » 29 Jan 2016, 06:17

Loved this, the point that I most agreed with was that the first order is "cosplaying" the empire, but there was a factor to what you guys were discussing that you also touched on but I think it possibly didn't occur to you guys to connect back to phasma.

As noted the first order is full of youngins, except for phasma, according to background information Phasma is nearly a good decade older than General Weasely. (she's 38 he's scraping 30) if the empire folded 20 years ago that means he is probably the Hitler youth type (to continue the first order = Nazi Germany allegory), but phasma is not only old enough to have seen the last vestiges of the old empire, but have also possibly served in it. There is likely a part of her that loathes how childish this shadow of the empire is but takes what she can get. Its not just "doing what your captors tell you" it's "I'm tired of covering these kids asses."
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby RoboNixon » 29 Jan 2016, 09:04

Speaking to Cameron's point about cosplay, I'll reference The Golden Bough, which I started reading because of him actually.

"For myth changes while custom remains constant; men continue to do what their father's did before them, though the reasons on which their father's acted have been long forgotten."

This definitely applies to the First Order. Frazer was talking about religion and ritual, but in this example both sides seem to fetishize their former glory without expressing exactly why.

This can also apply on a macro level to the film. They understand that this isn't New Hope, but have to maintain the ritualized nature of the frachise, while adding to the mythology because they know what works. This is probably why many people believe this to be a retelling, which I feel is valid but reductive. If you look at the surface level, then yes it's a reboot. It is after all for many only a movie, and they have no obligation to look beyond for meaning. Me, I think it's all these things and damn if I don't love it for what it achieves.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Scud422 » 29 Jan 2016, 13:03

I had some problems with Finn's character and motivations.
In the beginning we see him staggered by the horrors of war, the sight of his friends dying around him, and he can't bring himself to pull the trigger to kill others.

*15 minutes later*
"Hey Poe! Did you see how I killed those storm troopers?! That was awesome!"
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Drendar » 29 Jan 2016, 13:22

Scud422 wrote:I had some problems with Finn's character and motivations.
In the beginning we see him staggered by the horrors of war, the sight of his friends dying around him, and he can't bring himself to pull the trigger to kill others.

*15 minutes later*
"Hey Poe! Did you see how I killed those storm troopers?! That was awesome!"


Killing people who are actually trying to kill you versus being ordered to massacre a village of defenseless civilians.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby CelticStag » 29 Jan 2016, 16:09

See... I make the whole "Har har har, Star Wars Episode 7: A New Hope Remastered" while still understanding the movie is VERY different from A New Hope. I'm genuinely afraid of the people who can't see this IS a separate movie altogether
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Bergie » 29 Jan 2016, 17:19

Scud422 wrote:I had some problems with Finn's character and motivations.
In the beginning we see him staggered by the horrors of war, the sight of his friends dying around him, and he can't bring himself to pull the trigger to kill others.

*15 minutes later*
"Hey Poe! Did you see how I killed those storm troopers?! That was awesome!"


Additionally, people with faces dying (your friends, civilians) vs. undifferentiated helmets of stormtroopers.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby WP&P » 29 Jan 2016, 22:45

I thought the movie was just a ton of missed opportunities. And it gave me a new appreciation for the level of vision in the prequels... yeah you heard me right.

Starkiller base as the ultimate conflict was just weak and lazy writing. A much more interesting story might have been the actual rise of the First Order, perhaps the race is to prevent them from getting their hands on some leftover fleet of Star Destroyers or taking over a planet to serve as a new declared capitol... show the First Order in its ascendancy, to mirror the growth of Kylo Ren. Instead, we get a well-established First Order that already operates like the Empire, including already owning a Death-er Star.

Of course there are little quibbles like Phasma's underwhelmingness, and as others mentioned I might have liked a little bit of slow down and time passage.

I was really disappointed by the Han/Kylo scene, as it was a plot point that felt far too rushed. We get the sense that Ben/Kylo has been estranged from Han for quite some time, and yet Han is talking to him like he's just been out late that night "come on home, we miss you". That's not starting from the point their relationship is supposed to be at. We needed more interaction between the characters to get to that point, and the betrayal could have come a bit later after things have had time to stew for a bit.

All that said, I do love the new characters - all the choices made for Kylo Ren work for me, and Rey and BB-8 are wonderful. I am excited to see where these characters go next; I just hope they get to go beyond the realm of remake, into newly imagined scenarios.

And while I know it won't happen, I truly wish that Rey is not of any Skywalker, Solo, or Kenobi bloodline. I hope that she's just a random pin prick of the Force igniting and bringing someone to the last Jedi.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby AxiomaticBadger » 30 Jan 2016, 07:51

My only significant issue with the film was the "seeing exploding systems" bit, but then I just decided that the Hyperspace weapon catapulted debris/light through hyperspace, which was falling back into realspace lightyears away.
Yes, it's techobabble, but not necessarilly more than hyperspace being a thing in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea of the film being nostalgia per se, more the combination of Family, Betrayal and "Everything Changes, Everything Stays The Same".
The rebelion triumphed, the Empire died... and here we are again. Desert planets, Lightsabers, stormtroopers, a death star and a trench run.
All that sacrafice, all that suffering... it didn't matter.

Once again, millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.*
The Circle is now Complete.

Sure, it's said Luke was looking for the Jedi Temple, but when we find him he's a bearded hermit in the wilderness; he became Obiwan, hiding in shame from his past and from the Monster he created.


Finally, I absolutely loved that Luke's hiding place was mentioned during the Interrogation scene as being in Rey's head... that idea that the knowledge was already there... that she knew where he was the whole time...

As the wise man once said, "You cannot escape your destiny."


*Didn't Finn react to the destruction of those planets whilst inside the Bar, before anyone actually saw the explosions? I can't remember.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Lord Chrusher » 30 Jan 2016, 10:18

Besides the whole seeing exploding systems thing, the other thing that bothered me was the whole Starkiller Base eating a star. I had to actively suspend my disbelief by remembering it was a movie about space wizards because stars don't work that way.

I really liked hearing you talk about the movie. I would definitely like to listen to more long form criticism and commentary.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby RoboNixon » 30 Jan 2016, 11:37

Lord Chrusher wrote:I really liked hearing you talk about the movie. I would definitely like to listen to more long form criticism and commentary.

Agreed. Maybe a Corrector's Commentary?
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Scud422 » 01 Feb 2016, 10:32

Bergie wrote:Additionally, people with faces dying (your friends, civilians) vs. undifferentiated helmets of stormtroopers.


But they weren't just faceless storm troopers to him, they were is friends and comrades. He grew up with them. And it wasn't just the fact that he was able to just kill them so easily, but he also seemed to take joy and delight in killing them.

It would have been better if he had obvious difficulty and hesitated to pull the trigger. Then the reason why he destroyed the docked tie-fighters is because that was easier, emotionally, than shooting the guys. Then afterwards there could have been a nice little bonding moment where Poe comforts Fin by telling him he had no choice.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Bergie » 01 Feb 2016, 14:39

I debate your comment about them being faceless to him. Once they are in their armour, unless you know who was in the uniform (via name tag, watching them put their armour on, voice, etc) the Stormtroopers become undifferentiated rather fast. When he is in a TIE Fighter, I don't think he is close enough to tell the difference.

That said, this argument of mine depends entirely on there not being a significant esprit de corps among the Stormtroopers, and that Stormtroopers of different units do not fraternize much. That said, if the Star Destroyer carries a regiment, it is unlikely that the guards were part of his unit, and therefore he wouldn't have the personal connection to them.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby AxiomaticBadger » 02 Feb 2016, 03:47

RoboNixon wrote:Agreed. Maybe a Corrector's Commentary?

Yessss.

Bergie wrote:I debate your comment about them being faceless to him.
...
That said, if the Star Destroyer carries a regiment, it is unlikely that the guards were part of his unit, and therefore he wouldn't have the personal connection to them.


This keys into what I meant by meant by the themes of Family and Betrayal.
At the beginning of the Film the Order is the closest thing he has to a family, personified in his squadmates - everyone else is faceless to him.
But then, during his deployment, he sees one of the few people he has an actual attachment to gunned down, shaking his beliefs - and then on the Star Destroyer he is confronted by Phasma, and it becomes clear just how little the Order cares for him - he has been betrayed by his family, just like every other major character.

And so he leaves, trying to find a new place to belong... he searches for a new family, which he ultimately finds with Rey (incidentally contributing to his immediate attachment to her).

In this, he presents a counterpoint to Rey (Betrayed by her family but cannot help but forgive, despite knowing better) and Ben (Betrayed by his family and cannot help but condemn, despite knowing better). Each character has a similiar driving impetus, but each displays a distinct manner of coping with thier common trauma.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Odyzeus » 02 Feb 2016, 10:37

Can't load the podcast either, nor d/l the file.
Had to listen to it from the browser, like a caveman from the stone age.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby BlastFemur » 08 Feb 2016, 17:38

Always love listening to you all talk about film. I really appreciate Cam's lit-degree-ness even though he said it like a warning, and you all know so much about actual film-making that it's a fresh perspective for me. Great listen.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby cog1to » 18 Feb 2016, 23:13

for those who still think that Force Awakens and A New Hope plots are "not the same".

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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Bergie » 19 Feb 2016, 07:20

And here is the question: Was that original text written long ago and the corrections made recently, or was the original made about the same time as the corrections?

I say this because it is REALLY easy to make data agree if you try hard enough. I am sure I could write a similar treatment to this to make them sound 100% different from one another without much difficulty.

Also, as stated many times before (including in the vidcast): They are very similar movies because they both follow a common formula. The same can be said of any other story influenced by Joseph Campbell. The devil is in the details, and that new coat of paint is what gives it its individuality.
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Re: LRRcast - Star Wars

Postby Lord Chrusher » 19 Feb 2016, 15:25

Especially if you agree with the idea that the original Star Wars movies and the prequels form a ring composition, the ideas and plots of Star Wars films being recycled in later films is nothing new.
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