LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Talk about this week's LRRcast and what you'd like to see in future ones.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 19:25

Dominic Appleguard wrote:He's trying to say that phrases like 'it was popular because' and 'people only played it because' imply that everyone liked it for a certain specified reason. So yeah, you are saying he liked it for reason X. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but there you go.

Your opinion of the game is your business, we all know that, but your assessment of its popularity with lots of other people is certainly appropriate for debate. Which apparently we're all having now, if we can move on from semantics.

Except that I said "its popularity" which is a general statement which has nothing to do with the specific. A person does not "have popularity for" a thing, a group does. While individually you may like it because of some design element, or because you're a James Bond fan, or just enjoyed the film itself (you poor, poor soul [okay there's worse Bond movies and it was definetely Brosnan's best), it is not related to why the game was popular as a social phenomena.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 19:31

Cybren wrote:
The word 'No' at the beginning also makes it a direct response. It appears that you are saying: 'No, you are wrong. It is a fact that you are wrong.' Since you don't back it up at all, you're also implying that it's so obvious a fact as not to even require explanation.

Yes, it was a direct response to Dominic, who specifically used the phrase "was not 'always shit'". Thus, since he used that language, I disagreed with teh same language.

GE007 was certainly influential in the development of the 1st person shooter

In what way did it have influence? What innovations or tropes did it contribute to the genre?


the use of the analog stick, and dual stick controls for one. also zoomable sniper rifles and context sensative hitboxes in console games.

-m
Last edited by Matt on 06 May 2009, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 19:38

Turok was Febuary 97, Goldeneye was August. Both essentially had the same control scheme.

Clarifying as "in console games" is also kind of cheating, if PC games had it, it was only a matter of time for a console game to do it.

Of those, I can only find that Goldeneye did zooming for sniper rifles first (or at least, can't find an earlier game, PC or Console, that did it. Unless someone wants to be a smartass and include the FMV Police Quest: SWAT, which would be absurd).
Last edited by Cybren on 06 May 2009, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 19:54

Cybren wrote:Turok was Febuary 97, Goldeneye was August. Both essentially had the same control scheme.


actually, turok's default controls were the inverse of the default GE controls, but thanks for coming out.

GE had what? 8, 10 different control configs, including multiple dual stick configs?

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:02

Matt wrote:
Cybren wrote:Turok was Febuary 97, Goldeneye was August. Both essentially had the same control scheme.


actually, turok's default controls were the inverse of the default GE controls, but thanks for coming out.

GE had what? 8, 10 different control configs, including multiple dual stick configs?

-m

If memory serves, Turok used the stick to aim and the C-buttons to move. Which was inherently superior to Goldeneye requiring you to hold a button to use the stick to aim.

Oh, you mean the using two controllers. Yeah, that certainly lead to better console FPS controls, but it's the same thing as D-Pad/C Buttons & Stick. The innovation there is that you could use both hands to control movement and still shoot things, which, anyway, is mostly related to the console and not the game.
Last edited by Cybren on 06 May 2009, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 20:05

however, goldeneye had numerous other control configurations - including the first dual-analog control scheme, which is the point you keep missing.

it was also the first console game to do context sensitive hitboxs on enemies, and is credited along with MDK as the first console shooter to emply a zoom-scope sniper rifle.

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:11

MDK came out three months before Goldeneye and was a PC/Mac game. (It came out on the playstation November of the following year)
User avatar
tak197
Feito Com Fruta
Posts: 9010
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 19:20
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby tak197 » 06 May 2009, 20:13

Goldeneye, at least in the group of friends I had, was really all about the race to Oddjob in the character menu. Fuck, he was a hard one to kill.

Then there was the time I managed to kill someone with a Moonraker, by sheer fluke I assure you, by slappers. Twice in the same game.

Slappers only mode is one mode i wished i could have tried with my friends, just because I think it would have looked funny.
Image
Image
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:15

Oddjob had the disadvantage of having his head on everyone elses gun level.

And, Matt, I still don't think doing something PC games did already first on a console counts as innovation. It's a concept that already existed and it is not a stretch to adapt it to another format. (Mostly in reference to hitboxes)
User avatar
Jillers
Posts: 3006
Joined: 14 Oct 2008, 19:26
First Video: How to Talk LIke a Pirate
Location: Somewhere on top of garbage
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Jillers » 06 May 2009, 20:18

Cybren wrote:Oddjob had the disadvantage of having his head on everyone elses gun level.

And, Matt, I still don't think doing something PC games did already first on a console counts as innovation. It's a concept that already existed and it is not a stretch to adapt it to another format. (Mostly in reference to hitboxes)

It's not a stretch to adapt it, but it's unfair to not call it an innovation, as, for the console, it is an innovation - someone had to have the idea of implementing it, and the makers of GE did, and did it well.
Team Cybershark

[subliminal] visit Geeking Out About [/subliminal]


~End Transmission~
User avatar
tak197
Feito Com Fruta
Posts: 9010
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 19:20
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby tak197 » 06 May 2009, 20:22

Cybren wrote:Oddjob had the disadvantage of having his head on everyone elses gun level.


Actually, it was just below gun level. None of us could EVER shoot him in the head, especially in close range.
Image
Image
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 20:22

Cybren wrote:MDK came out three months before Goldeneye and was a PC/Mac game. (It came out on the playstation November of the following year)


And for that reason they are cretided simultaneously.

these games were all developed independently - and therefore so were the ideas contained within - it happened that at that time the technology was ready, and a lot of developers were working on similar implementations of the same ideas - however, as the first really huge hit to implement these features, goldeneye is credited with the popularization of them and the cementing of them in the collective developer's repitoire. Goldeneye outsold turok 8:1, and exposed a vastly larger numbers of people to those ideas. the original question was one of influence - it doesn't fucking matter who came out with a control scheme 6 months earlier, goldeneye influenced a fuckton more people than turok did.

Cybren wrote:In what way did it have influence? What innovations or tropes did it contribute to the genre?


questions answered, moving on.

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:25

Which has nothing to do with whether something is innovative. Bottom line.
Jillers wrote:
Cybren wrote:Oddjob had the disadvantage of having his head on everyone elses gun level.

And, Matt, I still don't think doing something PC games did already first on a console counts as innovation. It's a concept that already existed and it is not a stretch to adapt it to another format. (Mostly in reference to hitboxes)

It's not a stretch to adapt it, but it's unfair to not call it an innovation, as, for the console, it is an innovation - someone had to have the idea of implementing it, and the makers of GE did, and did it well.

The idea already exists. A console is a different platform but not a wildly different one. To take an idea that already exists, in your genre, and use it is not innovative, even if you're the first to do it on your specific platform.
User avatar
Graham
Super Moderator
Posts: 15038
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 19:37
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Graham » 06 May 2009, 20:30

How about the great multiplayer mode? That's the main reason anyone played Goldeneye, and it basically set the bar for FPS multiplayer.
User avatar
Jillers
Posts: 3006
Joined: 14 Oct 2008, 19:26
First Video: How to Talk LIke a Pirate
Location: Somewhere on top of garbage
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Jillers » 06 May 2009, 20:35

Cybren wrote:The idea already exists. A console is a different platform but not a wildly different one. To take an idea that already exists, in your genre, and use it is not innovative, even if you're the first to do it on your specific platform.


A mouse and keyboard is a different set up to imitate on a controller and have it feel intuitive.

More than that, it's not the individual elements themselves, but the implementation of those elements into one game, successfully.

(*siiiigh* and what Graham said, but he got in his post before me so I won't reiterate it)
Team Cybershark

[subliminal] visit Geeking Out About [/subliminal]


~End Transmission~
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:36

Graham wrote:How about the great multiplayer mode? That's the main reason anyone played Goldeneye, and it basically set the bar for FPS multiplayer.

I was surprised no one brought that up myself. The multiplayer of Goldeneye was its strongest point, but I think it was still a weak game and what made it memorable was more the people you played it with than the game you were playing. (That it forced you to be in the same room, a drawback in comparison to online multiplayer available to PC's, was also its strongest point, forging camaraderie, and, really, my favorite kinds of gameplay are meta-games, so at this level Goldeneye does appeal to me. Actually I imagine that is why the recent Perfect Dark game did poorly)
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 20:37

sorry, I was about ready to walk away form this conversation, but I missed the following statement:

cybren wrote:Oh, you mean the using two controllers. Yeah, that certainly lead to better console FPS controls, but it's the same thing as D-Pad/C Buttons & Stick. The innovation there is that you could use both hands to control movement and still shoot things, which, anyway, is mostly related to the console and not the game.


cybren wrote:Yeah, that certainly lead to better console FPS controls


cybren wrote:What innovations or tropes did it contribute to the genre?


-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 20:40

You missed the part where i said that the actual innovation there was that it could allow movement and aiming at the same time, and that the innovation wasn't two analog sticks, since the analog stick for movement is no different from a D-pad. Which Turok did.
User avatar
Graham
Super Moderator
Posts: 15038
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 19:37
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Graham » 06 May 2009, 20:51

Why are you so concerned with comparing Goldeneye to PC games?
The PC and console market have been separated, and just responding to everything by saying that "PCs did it first" isn't just not giving the game the credit it deserves, but it's also missing the point.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Matt » 06 May 2009, 20:52

No, I really didn't, I just didn't consider that point to be valid.

Your point boils down to "yes, they did things a different way, but because that way is only slightly different from this other way, they are the same"

they aren't.

goldeneye was the fist console game to combine analog conrol of movement and analog control of aiming. could they have gone digital movement/analog aim? sure! and today we'd be playing halo on a D-pad with one analog stick.

you asked "how was it influential"

I answered that.

you asked "what has it contributed to the genre?" well, I've answered that too.

at this point you're splitting any hair you can find to defend your position of "it was shit"

well, the majorty of the 9 million people that bought it probably disagree with you. the academy of arts and sciences, who awarded it in 4 categories, disagrees with you. The numerous publications that gave it game of the year disagree with you. The BAFTA award it recieved disagrees with you, and clearly I disagree with you.

Goldeneye combined a number of great ideas and technological advances, some new, some borrowed, into an outstanding and critically acclaimed piece of software, purchased by millions. It is looked on as the game that truly catapulted first-person shooter games into the spotlight on console. That -right there- is innovation and influence. Whether you like it, or not.

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 21:06

Graham wrote:Why are you so concerned with comparing Goldeneye to PC games?
The PC and console market have been separated, and just responding to everything by saying that "PCs did it first" isn't just not giving the game the credit it deserves, but it's also missing the point.

I'm not making an effort to compare them to PC games, I'm saying that it's not valid to call doing something another game did innovative just because the prior game was on the PC.

Innovation isn't slight changes is my point. Innovation isn't "more people played it so clearly that's where the idea came from". I didn't even completely deny the point, as you quoted, I just said that it's not appreciably different to call it innovative, AND my main point was that the control scheme used had more to do with the console than it did the game.

I am not trying to contort the discussion to fit my world view that goldeneye is terrible. I am disagreeing with you that a videogame was good, and that it was a major influence on later games. It had some influence, as every game did, but, in the context of "the one FPS game that someone should play to get an idea of the genre", I do not think that it comes close. (and it was in that context that my questioning of in what way was it influential was meant).

There are far, far more FPS games that are influential, and far far better games, both in its day, and after it. The language used prior to my raising any objection was that Goldeneye was obviously great and obviously innovative, and thing turned negative only when I disagreed with that point.
User avatar
notomtolose
Posts: 218
Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 16:44
Location: YWG

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby notomtolose » 06 May 2009, 21:36

Innovation is not quality, folks. Being the first is not being the best.

Matt, while the game is still generally well-liked, it is kind of hip these days to diss on GoldenEye, like it is to diss on FFVII. He's not all alone, there are lots of people who either
A - Forgot, never saw, or changed their mind about what was so great about the game in the first place.
B - Just never properly understood what they liked about it, and therefore now conclude that they must have been wrong in thinking it was good back then.
This, apart from those who never liked it in the first place. There's got to be a few of them around, somewhere.

Cybren wrote:If memory serves, Turok used the stick to aim and the C-buttons to move. Which was inherently superior to Goldeneye requiring you to hold a button to use the stick to aim.


I think Matt made mention but nobody's clarified this completely. In fact, GoldenEye's default controls mixed it up to maximize both hands. GoldenEye's levels and autoaim were both designed with the default control scheme in mind - limited verticality in the levels and a big boost to vertical autoaim. Therefore, horizontal aim and movement forward and back were assigned to the analog stick (which, being an 'outie' instead of an 'innie' was poorly suited to aiming purposes anyway) while strafing and vertical aim were assigned to the C buttons.

It's crazy to think about it now, but it would be hard to claim they didn't think hard about the best possible control scheme for their game - particularly considering the numerous control options they made available to the player. I know I played Turok before GoldenEye, and I never did get to like the Turok controls.

What else is so great about GoldenEye? We've mentioned the approachable multiplayer.

I actually liked the single player just about as much. The levels are just the right length. The objectives make sure you're never doing one thing for too long. Stealth is critical to success, but one slip doesn't end your game - a balance modern stealth games STILL have trouble striking.

The levels are big enough to get lost in, but small enough to clear if you're a little OCD. Respawning enemies, indeed monster closets in general, are used sparingly and appropriately. This offers you the chance to memorize the best path through a level (or get someone to tell you - how rarely we can give people gaming advice these days without simply spoiling the solution), if you don't happen to have the mad skillz necessary to get by without a plan. And really, who's to say what the 'best' path really is? Most GoldenEye levels were amazingly open, many paths were often workable, with objectives able to be carried out in any order the player might want. Even the final boss, rather than some big monster in a grand arena, was a frantic game of cat and mouse on the antenna cradle.

And how about that difficulty system? Agent gives you just enough errands to keep you interested without making the game complicated for beginners. Once you've learned the level layout, Secret and 00 Agent each stacked on additional criteria for you to satisfy (and sometimes change your path entirely) making each level a new experience, giving you an excuse to try the hard mode other than mere bragging rights. And if that's not enough challenge for you, how about trying to unlock all the cheats? Extra bonus features perfectly designed to be desirable without emasculating people who couldn't beat some cruel 'super ultra triple-0 agent' mode.

Don't forget the legends. Who could forget the scandal over the 'classic bond' models being removed from the game? Were they really in there, hidden somewhere? What the heck kind of weapon is a Klobb, and why does it suck so much? Is it even humanly possible to get the cheats from the Facility or Archive levels? What on earth does AC -10 mean?!

Obviously, legends do not make a great game - but they spring up around them, or at least they did in those days. GoldenEye was not merely 'popular'. GoldenEye 007 was beloved.

And rightfully so, if you ask me.

That all said, despite it's historic importance, I actually have to agree completely with Cybren that it's no longer representative even of console FPS titles. It's a good introduction to console FPS multiplayer, and it was one of the first, which are big reasons it became part of the zeitgeist - but it's no longer the best introduction, and certainly not the best overall or most exemplary console FPS multiplayer that exists.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 21:41

It's true, I don't like FF7 that much!
User avatar
Graham
Super Moderator
Posts: 15038
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 19:37
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Graham » 06 May 2009, 21:42

notomtolose wrote:Is it even humanly possible to get the cheats from the Facility or Archive levels? What on earth does AC -10 mean?!
Yes it's possible I've seen it done, and it means "Armor Class -10" which in D&D means you're very hard to hit. It means you dodged a lot of fire.
Cybren
Posts: 1497
Joined: 29 Feb 2008, 14:38

Re: LRRcast for has this ever happened to you

Postby Cybren » 06 May 2009, 21:43

Graham wrote:
notomtolose wrote:Is it even humanly possible to get the cheats from the Facility or Archive levels? What on earth does AC -10 mean?!
Yes it's possible I've seen it done, and it means "Armor Class -10" which in D&D means you're very hard to hit. It means you dodged a lot of fire.

Well, in AD&D, before someone starts coming in and going "NO!!!!!".

I recall being real smug when I found out that Goldeneye had controller input cheats, because my friends insisted it didn't.

Return to “LRRcast”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests