Dear people who hate Turn based RPGs.

[Sieg Reyu]

Would you shut up already? You're ruining it for the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Sieg Reyu

[Gordon Fearman]

Dear Sieg Reyu,

Do you mean 'would'?

Sincerely,
Gordon Fearman

[Evil Jim]

One would think the RPGs themselves were already doing enough to ruin it for you.

[Dutch guy]

Who you shut up already? You;re ruining it for the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Sieg Reyu

Shut up, NERD!



sorry, I'm not actually that kind of person. I just had to do it. Look over there! *End turn*

[Dave-O_Boy]

I'll take a turned based game over one with terrible AI allies any day.
Usually AI allies are god awful, or mediocre at best. I can only think of two games that are RPGs and have decent AI. Devil Summoner 2 and maybe Mass Effect 2. However in Devil Summoner 2 the AI is only great because it will only do one move over and over til you tell it to do something else. In Mass Effect 2 the allies general try to stick by you and don't run in front of you, but it's more of a third person shooter so its in that genre gray area.
That's not to say that turn based systems don't have their own issues (usually lack of variety and therefore lack of strategy early on), but turn based systems have much more potential for interesting strategies and battles.

[Zombaholic]

I either like complete control of the characters, or at least have as Dave-O said, good AI partners. I'd also like my partners to revive me when I die, or rather fall down. As much as I loved Persona 3 and 4 I was ticked when I would die and everyone else was peachy. Though now I'm getting into RPG battle systems then the central turn based argument.

[MattAn]

This is always a touchy issue for me.. Those who happen to come across my "Motto" on my Escapist profile will find this;

WRPG fans? Shut up. JRPG fans? Do the same. Get over yourselves and just play YOUR games. Deal with it.

That's my view of the whole thing in general. I don't hate WRPGs. I don't hate JRPGs. I see absolutely no reason to differentiate/separate them into sub-genres.

The whole argument is rather pathetic, almost laughable. Especially when hardcore JRPG fans tend not to bitch and complain about WRPGs.. However, it seems hardcore WRPG fans always end up bitching about JRPGs.. For no reason at all. Why can't there be a neutral understanding on both sides? It's perfectly fine to not like, even hate, a particular genre.. But when a vocal majority of a fanbase lose all common decency and respect, it just doesn't make any sense.

[Maerarde]

Well I just got FF13 and like it.

So that rules me out of turn based haters.

EDIY: But wat'cha gunna do, haters gunna hate.

[MattAn]

Well I just got FF13 and like it.

So that rules me out of turn based haters.

EDIY: But wat'cha gunna do, haters gunna hate.

Haters ARE gunna hate, yo. It's expected, sadly..

I'm honestly not caring about the FFXIII hate anymore. I enjoyed the story, the characters, the soundtrack and the battles.. Good enough for me! I don't think I really even cared about any apparent linear progression. I just carried on with it! Sure, it has its flaws, but no game is legitimately perfect except maybe Minecraft.. :3

[Myrph]

As much as I loved Persona 3 and 4 I was ticked when I would die and everyone else was peachy.

Especially since if the protagonist died, it was game over... That was irritating, although at least in P4 you had the option of getting complete control over the other members of your party, something that was sorely missed from P3...

[xdeathknightx]

I like western rpgs and jrpgs. Although I am glad that in Asian rpgs they are moving away a bit from the random encounter type battles. To many memories of playing the earlier FF's, being without potions, used up your last tent and down on your health just a hair away from the safety of town aaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddd random encounter. Usually with a few monsters, just to make sure they could properly kick you while you were down. And then you could revert back to your last savegame and hope you had better luck this time.

[Dave-O_Boy]

See I actually really like when a game makes its so that when the player character dies you get a game over. It makes a game that has a silent or heavily role played main protagonist. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, like FF13, but in games where it fits (like SMT: Nocturne) it really improves the gameplay and difficult while adding to the narrative.

[Dubious_wolf]

Not an RPG but republic commandos had a great AI. So just take the command system from that and your AI woes are over. I prefer the kotor method of turn base. I don't know if it originated somewhere else, or what it would be referred to as.

[Arius]

I like both. It's like being mad at sports games because you like shooters. They're different genres.

[GreigKM]

I like both. It's like being mad at sports games because you like shooters. They're different genres.

I'm mad at sports games for an entirely different reason.

[Sieg Reyu]

The reason I say this, as it seems some of you are catching what I'm throwing, is that Turn Based RPGs are dieing out, especially on consoles. The only form they seem to exist in nowadays is the DS, and even still, a lot of the good ones are remakes.

I firmly believe this is because every time a turn based RPG comes out, every review I see for it bashes the battle mechanics. And, belive it or not, game makers listen to what people think of their games and try to meet their demands.

I like western RPGs. I really do. I have no qualms with those games, they whould stay the way they are. So can someone tell me why we should stop making turn based RPGs? Even my last bastion of hope, Last Story, Sakaguichi's new RPG, is going to be real time. I'm still going to pick it up because it looks amazing, but why can't I get a good turn based?

[Jillers]

Dear people who hate people who bash turn based RPGs,
Would you shut up already? No one cares.

Sincerely,
Jillers
(a person who just likes a good rpg)

[MattAn]

Dear people who hate people who bash turn based RPGs,
Would you shut up already? No one cares.

Sincerely,
Jillers
(a person who just likes a good rpg)

...You obviously didn't read my post properly.

Turn-based RPG fans have every god-damn right to bitch about those who belittle their particular choice of RPG sub-genre.. Because not once do turn-based RPG fans EVER bitch and complain about real-time, primarily Western RPG games. It's completely one-sided.

Final Fantasy fans never complain about Mass Effect, Dragon Age or Fallout. They let people who DO like those games more actually play those games without belittling it. Unfortunately, this leads to those fans of Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Fallout to CONSISTENTLY BERATE traditional JRPG fans. That.. Makes absolutely no sense at all. Ever.

Now, I'm not a FAN of either. I find the particular game that I want and just play it. I don't particularly care about another person's choice of RPG or whatever. It's none of my business. Therefore, it's also none of anyone else's business what I choose to play. Simple.

So.. No. No I will not shut the fuck up.

[Jillers]

Dear people who hate people who bash turn based RPGs,
Would you shut up already? No one cares.

Sincerely,
Jillers
(a person who just likes a good rpg)

...You obviously didn't read my post properly.

Turn-based RPG fans have every god-damn right to bitch about those who belittle their particular choice of RPG sub-genre.. Because not once do turn-based RPG fans EVER bitch and complain about real-time, primarily Western RPG games. It's completely one-sided.

Final Fantasy fans never complain about Mass Effect, Dragon Age or Fallout. They let people who DO like those games more actually play those games without belittling it. Unfortunately, this leads to those fans of Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Fallout to CONSISTENTLY BERATE traditional JRPG fans. That.. Makes absolutely no sense at all. Ever.

So.. No. No I will not shut the fuck up.

Really, cause I think you have a limited experience, as do I. My experience has been everyone complains about everyone else. I definitely have known of people who complain about the WRPG and thin the TBS is awesome.
So you know what? As long as the game is good, why not just enjoy it?

[MattAn]

Really, cause I think you have a limited experience, as do I. My experience has been everyone complains about everyone else. I definitely have known of people who complain about the WRPG and thin the TBS is awesome.
So you know what? As long as the game is good, why not just enjoy it?

That's the problem though, Jillers.. Everyone's perception of "good" always leads to horrendous bickering over "which is the better sub-genre?"

What I said above is still perfectly valid. BOTH sides need to shut the fucking fuck up. You're right on one thing here.. Just enjoy the damn game. That's also my major point. Rarely anyone does just that.

I'm also talking about taking things to extremes as well. WRPG fans will constantly berate JRPGs, their systems and their fanbase, yet JRPG fans don't go to that same extreme. Sure, they'll say "I find TBS systems much better for me and don't particularly like the systems WRPGs have in place" and really, leave it at that. JRPG fans could really care a lot less about what WRPG fans think about their game choice. It's when it's done so harshly that it angers them.

Again, it's a completely one-sided argument. I've witnessed it many times, more often in The Escapist community. Luckily, I discovered a number of PM's from people over there that were also waiting for someone else to see their view correctly.

[Sieg Reyu]

Let's say there is a candy store. It offers all sorts of in house made candy. But lets focus on two candy bars in particular, Lotso Chocolates, and Caramel Goodness. They both sell fairly well, but then a few people, who absolutely detest caramel, come in and buy some Caramel Goodness. They eat them there on the spot in front of the shopkeeper. The entire time, with every bite, they complain and whine about the caramel. "It would be such a great chocolate bar, if it wasn't for all this darn caramel," they say. Day after day they do this, occasionally buying a Lotso Chocolate, but still buying the Caramel Goodness and complaining. Desperate to please his consumers, the candymaker goes hard to work, and before long he reveals the new Caramel Goodness, now with 100% less caramel.

Question: Who is the d-bag in this scenario?

A: The consumers complaining about caramel.
B: The Shopkeeper trying to match consumer demand.
C: The shoppers who refrained from partaking and critizing candy they didn't like
D: The person who chooses B or C
E: D and A

[xdeathknightx]

Really, cause I think you have a limited experience, as do I. My experience has been everyone complains about everyone else. I definitely have known of people who complain about the WRPG and thin the TBS is awesome.
So you know what? As long as the game is good, why not just enjoy it?

That's the problem though, Jillers.. Everyone's perception of "good" always leads to horrendous bickering over "which is the better sub-genre?"

What I said above is still perfectly valid. BOTH sides need to shut the fucking fuck up. You're right on one thing here.. Just enjoy the damn game. That's also my major point. Rarely anyone does just that.

I'm also talking about taking things to extremes as well. WRPG fans will constantly berate JRPGs, their systems and their fanbase, yet JRPG fans don't go to that same extreme. Sure, they'll say "I find TBS systems much better for me and don't particularly like the systems WRPGs have in place" and really, leave it at that. JRPG fans could really care a lot less about what WRPG fans think about their game choice. It's when it's done so harshly that it angers them.

Again, it's a completely one-sided argument. I've witnessed it many times, more often in The Escapist community. Luckily, I discovered a number of PM's from people over there that were also waiting for someone else to see their view correctly.

Bull. There are idiots like this on both sides. Just because you never saw it doesn't mean there aren't any jrpg fans out there being a dick about it. I have met them.

[MattAn]

Let's say there is a candy store. It offers all sorts of in house made candy. But lets focus on two candy bars in particular, Lotso Chocolates, and Caramel Goodness. They both sell fairly well, but then a few people, who absolutely detest caramel, come in and buy some Caramel Goodness. They eat them there on the spot in front of the shopkeeper. The entire time, with every bite, they complain and whine about the caramel. "It would be such a great chocolate bar, if it wasn't for all this darn caramel," they say. Day after day they do this, occasionally buying a Lotso Chocolate, but still buying the Caramel Goodness and complaining. Desperate to please his consumers, the candymaker goes hard to work, and before long he reveals the new Caramel Goodness, now with 100% less caramel.

Question: Who is the d-bag in this scenario?

A: The consumers complaining about caramel.
B: The Shopkeeper trying to match consumer demand.
C: The shoppers who refrained from partaking and critizing candy they didn't like
D: The person who chooses B or C
E: D and A

I love this analogy. Well played, Sieg Reyu! It's so very true.

There's a simple solution for the WRPG fans that don't like JRPG's. This may shock you though.. DON'T FUCKING BUY OR PLAY THEM! It's THAT simple. JRPG fans do it quite well!

This then means it gives neither party involved any right to bitch and complain about it.

A perfect example is the early games in the Final Fantasy series. There are people to this very day that proclaim that IV, V & VI far surpass any and all other games in the series. Others will claim that only VII, VIII & IX exist and that the PSX range (besides FFVIII, of course.. because you're an idiot if you actually liked that messed up lack of plot) is far better than anything else. It's the bickering and complaining that completely ruined Final Fantasy XI. It was a BRILLIANT game in the early years. The storyline was amazing, the job classes, etc were fairly tolerable.. Then as the expansions were released and the vocal, extremist fanbase spewed their vile filth, the game turned to complete and utter shit. Poor update decisions, thanks solely to the extremists/elitists of the game, lackluster storyline that contradicted Chains of Promathia (by far the greatest and most epic of the expansions) and the elitist players loved it solely because it contained "shiny gear/equipment" at the end. The story didn't even matter anymore.. Because the players themselves fucked it up with their demands.

You're absolutely retarded if you didn't choose E in Sieg Reyu's analogy. C is the SMART way to go, yet it's very rare that anyone uses their brain.

@xdeathknightx; I've seen more than enough from WRPG fans proclaiming against JRPG's than I have the other way around. I'm not saying that JRPG fans are exempt from this problem.. But it's a lot less extreme.

Here's another analogy. Final Fantasy XI vs. World of WarCraft. This petty debate ALWAYS causes widespread flame wars on a lot of FFXI community forums.. But is rarely cared about on WoW forums.

You could ask a WoW player if they've ever heard of FFXI and most will say "Oh, it's that Japanese-made MMO, right? I guess I've heard of it but that's about it!", except translated from the stereotypical WoW fanboy language.

Ask an FFXI player that same question and prepare for an onslaught. They constantly complained and berated WoW and its fanbase for its cartoony graphics, easy/simplistic (being able to solo compared to FFXI's forced party/grind system) gameplay, etc.. They just wouldn't stop.

I have played both MMO's and I actually quite enjoyed my time in both worlds. I rarely complained about it though! When a certain mechanic or whatever bothered me, I just.. Wouldn't use it. Simple.

The same thing occurred when Final Fantasy XIV was further explained before release. FFXI players constantly bitched about FFXIV mainly because it was being made to be easier for solo players! Seriously. Apparently because it's called a Massively Multiplayer Online game, it automatically must force you to group up with people to progress anywhere. The players said this. The company making the damn game WANTED to make it easier for solo players. The beta was excruciating because there would be some really great/fun elements of the game, but it was apparently shit because it wasn't FFXI-2. Granted, the release version of the game still has MAJOR flaws and Squeenix is dishing out waves of free game time to try and make up for lost time, fixing the major issues, at least before PS3 launch next year.

The fact is, Squeenix could have made something truly EPIC, far beyond what FFXI was originally.. But the players forced their archaic views down the company's throats and most of the great concepts were completely ruined in the implementation of them.

[Darkobra]

I actually absolutely love both. They do what most games lack these days and actually tell a great story! The people that don't like a particular genre can just talk with their money and NOT buy it instead of crying to get it changed.

Although it's not always the people crying on forums that gets games changed. Final Fantasy was changed to try and be more up to date, try out new things and make the game a more cinematic and enjoyable experience.

Anyway, there are people like this on both sides and people like me on every side. I love Mass Effect! I loved Dragon Age! (Apart from the huge memory leak that made it damn near unplayable near the end.) I think most of the Final Fantasies are amazing, despite how old or new they are! If people don't enjoy it, they're not going to ruin ME enjoying my game.

[MattAn]

I actually absolutely love both. They do what most games lack these days and actually tell a great story! The people that don't like a particular genre can just talk with their money and NOT buy it instead of crying to get it changed.

Although it's not always the people crying on forums that gets games changed. Final Fantasy was changed to try and be more up to date, try out new things and make the game a more cinematic and enjoyable experience.

I like your signature. *wink*

My post above sounds incredibly bitter when reading it now, but all of my word salads are pretty much summed up well by you. I mean.. I can't say I enjoyed the Mass Effect 2 demo much, but that's just "not for me". I'm not going around spraying textual vomit everywhere proclaiming how much I didn't like it. I'm not going to abuse something another person might happen to like!

Hell, I don't even like the FF Tactics system of battles that much either, moving X amount of squares on a grid, etc.. I like the transitioned battle system that other FF's have, but having a Tales of.. series "real-time" based system within that would be quite neat! FFXIII was as close as I've seen to it.

The main problem of the numbered FF series is the players themselves, unfortunately.. But in a way, it's also the strong point. For example, surely everyone that's played most of the series will have a most favorite (tied between IX, X and XIII for me..) and least favorite (II & VIII for me). That's fine. It's also expected.

The common misconception from gamers who have never played an FF game, yet complain about them is "theres too many of them lolololololol", which isn't quite true at all, because none of them are related, except FFVII (Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Last Order, Advent Children) & FFX (FFX-2, with an odd canon-related link to VII's Shinra Corp.)

What Squaresoft/Square Enix intended to do for each Final Fantasy game is make each story different from the previous one. The characters often have some major JRPG stereotypes, but their character traits still differ if you pay attention closely. The battle mechanics are all completely different each time, as is the overall look and feel of the world in each game. Of course they're going to cater to different people and in turn, disappoint others.

While I may agree with Matt about FFVIII having a terrible lack of plot and unlikeable characters, etc.. I don't really care if someone else happened to like the game, for whatever odd reason.. (On a brief side note, I am stoked that Laguna Loire has been announced for the next Dissidia game. Don't care what anyone says, Laguna is fucking awesome. I mean, he ditched the woman that eventually became Rinoa's (THAT FUCKING HARPY-FACED WHORE!) mother! What's not to like? Then again, he did get it on with Raine in Winhill and that's how we got Squall. Win some, lose some..