Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

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tanatoes
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby tanatoes » 20 Mar 2012, 19:53

Some other topics of discussion besides the ending:

Before I reached the ending I theorized that Kai Leng was, in fact, Kaiden Alenko (who died on Vermire in this version of the time-line for me.) This would have been SO AWESOME! It would explain where this completely random assassin came from and fit him into the earlier games. He would be the proto-Shep that the Illusive Man created before resurrecting our character, which might explain why he was so insistent that Shepherd not be modified.

I also found myself quite disturbed by the ending, but not, apparently, for the reason everybody else is. I was more concerned because it was never explained what happened to all the inhabitants of the Citadel when the reapers captured it. What happened to all the refugees and folks I spent so much time helping? My wife thinks most of them might have had time to evacuate - and I'd like to think so... but somehow I can't convince myself that they're not in those piles of corpses you stagger by.

Oh, and I did find it odd that I chose the green ending and saw Edi getting off the Normandy with Jeff when she had been on that final assault with me back on Earth.

I long for more time seeing what happens to your companions after the ending. Something like the text in the Dragon Age ending. I had been looking forward to having Liara read her eulogy for Shepherd (which she talked with me about when visiting my cabin.) I kind of pictured something like the end of Majora's Mask, and felt a little let down that I didn't get it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Fawlkes » 20 Mar 2012, 20:17

@Psychpez: Thank you, I pride myself on civility

@tanteos: When you first see Kai Leng walking up to Illusive man I thought he was a clone of Shepard, but No, Kai Leng is a long standing character from the books, this is just his first in game appearance
Also I KNOW RIGHT, where the heck is Bailey? Bailey is one of my favorite side characters and they just make him disappear :(

@Albedo28: Mass effect is an almost perfect game, the ending is the almost part sadly
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 20 Mar 2012, 22:05

@psychopez regarding the mass relays
I absolutely agree that they had to go. Ever since Sovereign described them as part of a system of control, their destruction was a condition for breaking the cycle, not only symbolically but for practical reasons. The relays were how the Reapers accessed our galaxy, but they also represented an intellectual threshold that limited the intellectual development of the younger races. Matriarch whatsername, Liara's father, the bartender on Ilium, mentions that the Asari are perfectly capable of understanding how the mass relays work, but they have no interest in exploring them. Why would they bother? That technology has been fully exploited, it's done. With them out of the way, we've been kicked out of the garden (and thank you for broaching that metaphor) and have to fend for ourselves.

I kind of wish that the reason that the Charon relay was buried in ice had been explored, because I like the theory that Mars was a last Prothean outpost and they tried to seal the door behind them while they worked on the Crucible. Too bad the Reapers are too patient for that strategy. I suppose nobody really needs to explicitly say that because there's only so many explanations for it, but still.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby RedNightmare » 21 Mar 2012, 00:06

Now this is a discussion thread I like. What follows was partly lifted from my post in the CP thread: The destruction of the relays actually makes a lot of sense narratively and moving forward with the series
With the Mass Relays destroyed, as Tycho from PA points out, "the alliance you’ve jammed together with gum, glue, and tape is now sitting in the equivalent of a ten by ten room, all of them armed to the teeth." Sounds like a great idea for a Mass Effect RTS right there.
Also, let's say we jump ahead about 600 years. The surviving pockets (or just one) of civilization has gotten FTL up to speeds they can visit other parts of the Galaxy again. a Mass Effect RPG with a clear Space Exploration Vibe (you can't be sure what former colonies survived or where people got stuck, like the Normandy)? Count me in!
I agree with UnarmedOracle that they were part of the problem, as they limit the races in the long run. Apparently (I forgot personnaly, but a friend noted it a few days ago), the geth don’t like using the relays, as they want to forge their own destiny (“like Shepard Commander”), not travel a path laid out by others.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 21 Mar 2012, 01:34

@tanatoes: I'm with you on this. I want to know what happened to the people on the Citadel. Maybe not the Council, but all the other people you helped and listened in to. Like the girl waiting for her parents in the refugee camp? Or the Salarian you found the heating units for? I like to think that they managed to evacuate and the Reapers were so intent on getting the station that they let the refugees go, knowing they could come and get them later.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The_Doctor » 21 Mar 2012, 02:28

@Geoff: Well I'm pretty sure Kelly Chambers got dragged off or execued by Cerberus, but I'm not sure because I couldn't hear the dialogue properly
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby LogicSword » 21 Mar 2012, 02:34

@The_Doctor: That's one option, if you tell her to change her name she gets away and becomes a war asset.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 21 Mar 2012, 04:23

@The_Doctor & @LogicSword I didn't have dinner with her in 2 so I didn't encounter her in this one.

Also it just struck me how similar this is to Deus Ex 1's endings. You get three options - Destruction (destroy the facility and all world communication is eliminated, Control (let the Illuminati take over) and Synthesis (join with the Helios AI). I don't remember there being a huge outcry when that game came out.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Jamfalcon » 21 Mar 2012, 08:08

Well, I stayed up way later than I should have last night and finished the game. Overall, I think it was the strongest in the series from a gameplay perspective, but the main plot was less engaging than the original and the cast of party members was not as interesting as the second one.

My thoughts on the ending: I'm not nearly as passionately for or against it as a lot of people seem to be. Perhaps It's because I'm not a huge fan of the series. I enjoy them, but they've never been my favourites.

As for the ending itself, I don't really mind it as an ending, but I don't feel like it's an appropriate ending for Mass Effect. Too ambiguous for a game that's supposed to be about showing the consequences of your actions. I am very much inclined to believe the indoctrination theory. I like the idea that the ending choice area was actually just Shepard standing at the beam, and he could shoot it to destroy, use the controls to disable it, or walk into it and complete his mission. Personally, I shot it, because I thought that choosing the middle option would destroy everything, organic and synthetic before combining them, and that didn't seem like an appealing ending to me. Even though it meant wiping out the Geth, who had already killed all of the Quarians (Tali died in the second game), it still accomplished the mission of destroying the reapers and saving most of the people in the galaxy.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 21 Mar 2012, 08:38

spoiler:
I'd be more than happy to accept the indoctrination theory and I can see how people arrive at it but I have one huge problem with it. Namely that if it's true then whichever option you choose the story is not over and the Reapers are still poised to destroy everything.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Jamfalcon » 21 Mar 2012, 08:55

Spoiler: Yes, that certainly is an issue there. I suspect that if they were to have some DLC that reveals that, it'll also have another two hours or so of gameplay where either Shepard uses the Crucible to destroy the reapers or the combined forces of all the races prove to really be enough to defeat the reapers without its help.

I'm just waiting for them to announce that their will be DLC to see the "real" ending... and it will cost $10. The outrage from that would be tremendously overwhelming, I suspect.


Also: One of BioWare's confounders wrote a bit about the response to the ending: http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/. The part I found most interesting is that he said "...hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April." and, later in the same paragraph " This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games".

I know they said before ME3's release that it was just the end of Shepard's story, not the end of the Mass Effect universe, but it's nice to see conformation after the way it ended. The other thing they've said in the past is that there is no canon in Mass Effect. This is another reason, in my mind, to believe that the ending from the game didn't really happen. They can't very easily make a sequel that incorporates whether the reapers are controlled by Shepard, everything is combined into synthetic and organic, or there is no synthetics left. A sequel will already have a lot of variables to take into account, and that just seems like too much for them to handle. Not to mention that there would be no Mass Relays. There is someone's (JackSlack maybe?) earlier in this thread that they could do a game about exploring the galaxy without the Relays, and I must admit that would be very interesting.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 21 Mar 2012, 11:29

I think it's worth pointing out that faster-than-light drives still exist, so intra-cluster travel is still possible, but relatively lengthy -- weeks or months instead of moments. I think there was also an ANN story just before the game launched mentioning research into Calabi-Yau Manifolds, which could lead to other forms of FTL travel.

Also, this opens the possibility that we'll see travel to clusters that weren't home to relays. There's a lot of there out there, and I'm given to understand that almost none of it is explored, or had been given much thought before Everything Changed.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby RedNightmare » 21 Mar 2012, 11:29

So their working on changing the ending?
Personnaly, unless this was their plan all along, I am very disappointed.
@Jamfalcon: That was me with the exploration idea. Glad I'm not the only one who would be interested in that.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby adnapyzarc » 21 Mar 2012, 12:34

Welp looks like Bioware is doing the right thing, Today on Kotaku news.

"Calling criticism of Mass Effect 3's ending "incredibly painful," the co-founder of BioWare, the studio behind the game, said today that changes for the game's conclusion are in the works."

"Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You'll hear more on this in April. "

We're working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we've received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue.



So they are not completely changing the ending, just altering it to make more sense and actually have closure. Smart move Bioware, smart move. . .


Well, I'm happy.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby psychopez » 21 Mar 2012, 13:21

..I hope those who feel the need for a revised ending enjoy what ever comes out. I honestly, truly do. No sarcasm at all, I really mean this. I hope this allows everyone to move on.

I just fear the backlash at this new content is going to be even worse than the original controversy when the new content also doesn't meet the fan's expectations...

I'm not going so far as to say this is running games as art like some folks are, I'm just saying the team that had how long to make it right the first time and didn't, and now it's either expected of them to do it on a shorter time frame or compose it via committee?

We had years to build up to ME3. The build up for this fix is going to be the same just condensed into months, and hope is more volatile the denser it gets. I'd put down my highest value Pez dispenser the backlash will be the same intensity as this was when the new one comes out, if not greater...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby LogicSword » 21 Mar 2012, 13:24

Ooooh! While we're fixing everything, can we get Jack to actually wear clothes? </petpeeve>
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby adnapyzarc » 21 Mar 2012, 13:34

psychopez wrote:..I hope those who feel the need for a revised ending enjoy what ever comes out. I honestly, truly do. No sarcasm at all, I really mean this. I hope this allows everyone to move on.

I just fear the backlash at this new content is going to be even worse than the original controversy when the new content also doesn't meet the fan's expectations...

I'm not going so far as to say this is running games as art like some folks are, I'm just saying the team that had how long to make it right the first time and didn't, and now it's either expected of them to do it on a shorter time frame or compose it via committee?

We had years to build up to ME3. The build up for this fix is going to be the same just condensed into months, and hope is more volatile the denser it gets. I'd put down my highest value Pez dispenser the backlash will be the same intensity as this was when the new one comes out, if not greater...


I wouldn't worry too much man. As one of those people upset with ME3's ending, I can say that as long as they are at least altering the ending a little to just add some more context and closure, I will be a very happy camper. I don't want them to completely change it, I just wanted it better, which seems to be exactly what they are promising to do right now.




LogicSword wrote:Ooooh! While we're fixing everything, can we get Jack to actually wear clothes? </petpeeve>

You must not have the alternate appearance DLC.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 21 Mar 2012, 14:25

Speaking of alternate appearances, now that Tali's face has been revealed to the world (and caused an outcry in its own right) why don't we remind ourselves of some of the other possibilities? (yes I know these are old!)

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby LogicSword » 21 Mar 2012, 15:11

NO! BAD GEOFF!
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 21 Mar 2012, 15:21

Yeah that "insert disc 3" one is just nasty.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby PinkassPink » 21 Mar 2012, 15:47

I was going to complain about Bioware compromising their artist's integrity etc. etc. but it seems people far more insightful and well spoken already have said what I wanted to say.

I understand that fans are the most important part of gaming, but even adding (hypothetical) asterisks and footnotes to an ending, it feels like it's the new kid of the group changing himself/herself constantly to please the rest.

I don't know. I just feel very disappointed in Bioware. Even if the updated product is better, I don't think they should do anything more about it.

Plus KoTOR2's ending was way more confusing, ambiguous and disappointing.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby PinkassPink » 21 Mar 2012, 15:53

And say what you will about George Lucas, he didn't change his movies back when the backlash came full and strong.

(I know, I know, not hte same medium nor context, but they're sort of similar?)
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby tanatoes » 21 Mar 2012, 16:50

Because I never click links in forums I don't know if this has been posted yet here. If not, well, it should have been:

http://kotaku.com/5895070/mass-effects-epilogue-reveals-forbidden-love-softball-scholarships
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 21 Mar 2012, 19:56

Something I read on twitter today nailed this on the head: "So if the government comes knocking, games are art. But when we hate the ending, they're products and the customer is always right. Got it."

As someone with an arts degree, I appreciate thoughtful, engaged and engaging Criticism, but sometimes I wish that game developers were insulated from reviews and their fans.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Artanis3224 » 21 Mar 2012, 21:53

The games industry is not just for art though. Mass Effect was not made just to express ideas or inspire conversation. It was made in part to make a profit, as is anything that comes out of a AAA studio.

Video Games themselves are an art form, just like movies are. But also like moves, they are part of an industry, and thus become 50% art, 50% business. We as consumers get the right to say "We don't like the ending, we want a better one" and the company no matter who they are should listen. That being said, as it is 50% artistic, BioWare (or any other company for that matter) is well within their right to say "We are happy with how our story turned out and will be keeping it that way".

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