Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 21 Mar 2012, 22:15

I suppose this could easily stray into a conversation about our definition of art, and I'm not really certain that I'm qualified to discuss that.

Suffice to say, I really enjoy Mass Effect and was satisfied with how it ended. IF bioware chooses to amend that, I'll probably play it too, but I'd rather let the creators know that I think they should feel safe to make the game they want to make.

This is how End of Evangelion was made.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 00:34

And I didn't like the ending of EoE very much either but I didn't go up in arms against the animation studio.

Heck I didn't really like Dragon Age II as much as I thought I would.

But there's a difference between airing your grievances for the purposes of constructive criticism and declaring all out war on a developer.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The_Doctor » 22 Mar 2012, 00:48

Depends on the developer, for example the lot that made Duke Nukem forever should be burned at the stake for their heresies. Bioware perhaps just need a gentle spanking, hell they might even like it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 00:49

The_Doctor wrote:the lot that made Duke Nukem forever should be burned at the stake for their heresies.


Sounds like fairly constructive criticism to me :D
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The_Doctor » 22 Mar 2012, 00:52

Sure is! We can have a sing along by the fire and roast some marshmellows.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby psychopez » 22 Mar 2012, 04:29

The_Doctor wrote:the lot that made Duke Nukem forever should be burned at the stake for their heresies.



Yes, because these guys have proven, before and after making Duke Nukem Forever, that they can't make a good video game at all...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby tamaness » 22 Mar 2012, 04:31

psychopez wrote:
The_Doctor wrote:the lot that made Duke Nukem forever should be burned at the stake for their heresies.



Yes, because these guys have proven, before and after making Duke Nukem Forever, that they can't make a good video game at all...


Yeah! Blue Shift totally wasn't the best of the original HL games!
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 04:52

Ohhh sarcasm! I get it now!
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby psychopez » 22 Mar 2012, 06:00

Yeah, it was missing sarcasm formatting so I didn't pick up on it either...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 22 Mar 2012, 12:11

I really don't even think they deserve "a gentle spanking". What for, exactly? Not telling the story you wanted to be told? I wasn't satisfied with the very very end to BSG, but I didn't threaten economic ruin on Ron Moore if it wasn't changed according to my specifications. At some point you have to learn to accept things on their own terms because even if you aren't told the story you want to hear, it might still be worth experiencing.

Forget the End of Evangelion, this is how we wind up with games written like Hollywood movies: stories by committee, designed to please the lowest common denominator.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 12:36

I do think there's a difference between suggesting "a gentle spanking" in obvious jest and going all out to insult anyone associated with the developer or trying to defend them or even offering a reasonable opinion (such as last Monday's Checkpoint).

You can write and say "I didn't like Duke Nukem Forever because xyz" and that will be taken on board. Personally attacking the writers of DNF is something else.

Throughout this thread people have been saying what they liked/didn't like about the story and the ending to that story, but no one to my knowledge has written the kind of vitriol that has been seen elsewhere (on the net if not this actual website).

I fully agree that writers can take the story in the direction they want it to go and end it however they wish. If we don't like that I fully agree that we have the right to say so clearly and distinctly, but above all reasonably. If the writer decides to alter things to improve them that's all well and good but we shouldn't feel that they have an obligation to us to do so. At the end of the day if we don't like something we get over it and move on.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Jamfalcon » 22 Mar 2012, 12:55

I agree with both of you as well. I wasn't fond of the ending, but I'm not of the belief that BioWare should change it just because they were under pressure to do so. If the indoctrination theory is correct and that was the plan all along, that's fine by me. I suspect however that it's all just wishful thinking and pretty unlikely to have been the original intention.

I definitely think that the writers should have the final say on the ending of a game regardless of what the fans think. The quality of the ending has nothing to do with this, and should be a completely separate discussion.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby UnarmedOracle » 22 Mar 2012, 13:00

I wasn't really directing my comment at The_Doctor ... just, God, the announcement that Bioware will be amending the ending in response to the internet whargarbling is just kind of depressing. I feel bad for Bioware, who told a great, challenging story and were rewarded with personal attacks, economic threats, and legal action. I wonder how long it will be before we get another game that dares not to end the way it's fanbase wants. Even the day one DLC response baffled me -- Bioware gave you option to buy the "exclusive" content included in the collector's editions of the games and got outrage in return.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 13:49

I'm happy for more DLC for this, after all that means more Mass Effect for us, but yeah it would have been best if it had been at the discretion of Bioware rather than seeming to be a response to the masses.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 22 Mar 2012, 14:36

I see writing is an art form as sometimes games themselves. Art is vulnerable to criticism (idealistically so future projects will be better). But it is the artist who makes, not the critic.

I think regardless of what occurs I'll be disappointed. If Bioware changes the ending due to negative feedback then it means they caved into peer-pressure. It makes the player-base feel more empowered than they should be over control of stories that aren't theirs. If Bioware changes it isolated of the QQ then it means they were indecisive and 'gasp!' shipped an incomplete product.
Now I have this shadow of initial let-down hovering over me in till the ending is ret-conned or explained/continued opposed to natural acceptance/denial eventually.

Also, Would Doctor Who suite the Mass Effect 'formula'?
Perhaps you play the Doctor in a Parallel world. Tardis is Normandy. Companions are your Squad Mates. Less combat more talking-your-way out of things.
The amount of chase segments would be ridiculous however.
Travelling anywhere in time and space would be a logistical nightmare that would be trivialised by 'linear' exploration or strange 'time travel mechanics'.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 14:58

I would have thought Doctor Who would suit a Layton type game or maybe point and click (like Monkey Island or something)
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The_Doctor » 22 Mar 2012, 15:20

Merrymaker_Mortalis wrote:*snip*

Just think about how many secondary characters they'd have to animate, humanize and then kill off horribly on every level to fit the dr who formula.

Also for a comedy forum some of you on here have a remarkable tendancy to miss jokes.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 15:27

Ah but Mass Effect is Serious Business :P
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby empath » 22 Mar 2012, 15:52

Okay, okay - couching this with the fact that I have yet to play Mass Effect 2 yet, I will say after reading up/watching on the whole 'everything is canon' canon for ME (and that took most of today :P), I do have to express disappointment on the ending.

Not to the extent that Deus Ex: Human Revolution did (seriously? All that buildup for just...*spits*), but of the same mild dissatisfaction I got after finishing the original DX (funny someone else mentioned the similarity). Yes, it was interesting to have different options and it behooved me to replay the game so I could see the different options, but having the narrative split like this DID kind of weaken the impact it had, and leave me slightly unsatisfied. Maybe it was because my favoured ending for Deus Ex was NOT one of the three choices given, or that I couldn't prefer one over the other two?

Perhaps with the whole issue of 'multiple choice denouement' has the factor that it confuses the audience with regards to closure; on one hand, keeping that worm of doubt can be good at the story continuing to stay in the forefront of the audience's mind, but it does also have the above issue of letting the audience feel things are unfinished, which can make them feel like they've been cheated out of an ending.

And yes, one of the biggest things about the 'choose your ending'-o-tron is frequently it disregards previous choices/actions over the course of the game; sometimes that is minimized with artful and diligent writing, and not so much *cough-cough-Eidos/Square-cough-cough* in other cases.

Anyways, as for Indoctrination Theory on ME3's endings: it seems plausible, but I don't know if I can ascribe that much foresight and advance planning to even Bioware. The old aphorism "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained to incompetence" can be twisted a little to fit this - not a plan (including predicting fan ire and lashback) to set up 'mediocre pseudo-ending' then follow up with "cool closure DLC" to lay down a game-writing masterstroke, as much as "okay, we'll have this lead to the 'after the shutdown' space exploration ME-MMO, and probably throw in an inter-species war RTS, and then down the road we'll start working 'Mass Effect 4: A New Age' after the Citadel Council races are reunited and and a new generation of Spectres are inducted, with the <CHARNAME> being one of those and- what? There's griping about the endings? Which on-ALL of them? Well hell, you can't please everyone...oh, HOW many irate emails? Err...really. What a charity fundraiser?...HOW MUCH? Hmmm...so, Drew - what backstory have you already got written for the MMO again? How quickly can you work it into a 'capper' ending DLC with the devs? Yeah...yeah, we might wanna do that first, instead." sort of stop-gap 'retconning'. ;^) (wow, that was a long thought)

As for complaints about KotOR2's ending - heh, THAT was rather famously a victim of 'hurry up and ship it' business policies at their worst.

Anyways, I'll probably see about catching up with the ME franchise when I can wedge it into my game schedule (I never did get a second playthrough finished with DXHR before Steam updated it into unusability again, and I'm on FO:NV right now), but I am still looking forward to taking a look at this stuff when all the dust has settled. :)

*and now that I think on it, the idea of a 'after the relays shut off' space exploration game - either as single-player or MMO-style - is rather intriguing...*

And I WILL say that the discussion here on the whole brouhaha was MUCH more civil than I was expecting, but then 'out in the open' on Bioware's forums and the like, I imagine there's an element of mob mentality that builds individual's responses a little higher and more emotional than they originally intended... :?

Oh, and after watching the 'Animal House epilogue' vid, I do think more movies/games could do with this sort of thing at the end. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Mar 2012, 16:03

As an aside I was playing through the first section of the game again and I spotted something. You know the kid? The one that common wisdom says doesn't actually exist? Well when you get to the bit where you first encounter the husks, if you look down to the right quickly you can see the kid run into the building, with the doors reacting to him, opening and closing behind him.

It's all the little details you can easily miss.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 22 Mar 2012, 16:29

I thought it was evil to create a petion/patition/pertition/wordIcan't spell that raises money for charity to change the ending.

Firstly, it's good to get people interested in donating money, but it's sad that it takes this to cause people to donate. Their favourite fictional universe not running how they wanted so they emotionally blackmail the Maker to change fate.

Also the Maker has no choice in the matter. They can be stubborn and stay true with their masterpiece (but be seen as a jerk because they ignored the 'generosity' of the zealous fanbase) or cave into the emotional blackmail.

TANGENT WARNING. I would have preferred an ending that implied that Mass Effect and Dragon Age existed in the same universe. It would be cheap and a subtle/forced cooperate tie-in but would have been amusing/interesting opposed to anti-climatic/interesting. Like the 'Maker' in the DA Universe was some AI/VI from a previous cycle that was 'seen' as a good (like The Asari Goddess). The Demons in DA were some form half-reaper converted race similar to the Asari that had close a association to emotion. The whole of DA takes place in a previous cycle or perhaps a future one.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby RedNightmare » 23 Mar 2012, 00:11

empath wrote:Oh, and after watching the 'Animal House epilogue' vid, I do think more movies/games could do with this sort of thing at the end. :mrgreen:

I agree, I was laughing through the entirety of that video and It actually had a nice ending vibe to it :D.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The_Doctor » 23 Mar 2012, 00:14

Spotted this and its an interesting read.

Warning spoilers inside: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/ ... ial-Ending
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 23 Mar 2012, 00:37

That is interesting. If it's true (and I can't see anything to suggest it isn't) it does shed new light on why things worked out that way.

On the other hand it could just add more fuel to the already-out-of-control fire.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Fawlkes » 23 Mar 2012, 09:54

I see the Deus Ex Human revolution comparison alot for this, and I really like that comparison to use against Mass effect's ending, but not for the reason you might think. They are both A, B, C, endings completely detached from gameplay, and however much Mass effect wants to hide it they are both just pressing a button on a machine that pops out an ending. Heres the kicker though, Deus Ex did it better, Deus ex's ENTIRE story lead up to that choice, Every one of those 3 choices had been fully fleshed out by the character behind it. Mass effect's did not, Mass effect's was pulled out of no where, with only a few story elements supporting whats going on it plain did not fit with the rest of the story. This was not the ending to mass effect 3! This was the ending to Deus ex

Spoiler for both games here:So the ending comes down to the catalyst's contrived "Organics vs. Synthentics" ending right? His point seems to be that they can not live together, no matter what, Thats the entire point to Deus ex, thats the point that game was driving home from minute 1, you can have it one way or the other, you can't have both. That was not what Mass effect 3 was doing, Mass effect 3 whole Organics and Synthetics story line had to do with how synthetics and organics could live together, how there could be peace.End spolier

My point is, Deus Ex's ending was good, the story of the whole game lead up to that ending, every last bit of it was thought out with the entire game in mind. Mass effect had a similar ending but it was bad, it seemed to completely lock out all MAJOR plot lines in favor of minor and new story elements, the game wasn't leading up to this ending, its not Mass effect 3's ending. On a side note, its seems like a really good ending for another scifi, or more like Science fantasy.

Theres my rant inspired by the Deus ex comparison. It's just my opinion, take it apart if you see an oversight, I won't be offended. xP

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