Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Kapol » 03 May 2012, 15:25

Matt wrote:I also really don't want that.

-m


Well do you at least want some pie?

Joking aside, I can understand not wanting another game. It's part of the reason I'm somewhat worried what the DLC they release will be. I'm really hoping Bioware manages to handle it in a way that helps calm the raging hoards of fans while not really ruining it for many others. Sadly, that seems to be impossible.

But I'm a bit more on the fence about an epilogue for each character. It could, in theory, be done well. It'd be a bit redundant since I think the game itself really showed where they were and, if the universe wasn't completely blown up, would be by the end of it. But at the same time it would be interesting to see each character's reaction to Shepard's death if he did die, and where that took them from there.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Matt » 03 May 2012, 15:33

Kapol wrote:But I'm a bit more on the fence about an epilogue for each character. It could, in theory, be done well. It'd be a bit redundant since I think the game itself really showed where they were and, if the universe wasn't completely blown up, would be by the end of it.


Exactly this. I hate HATE the idea of being spoonfed some "and here's what happened to everybody", pat on the back.

Aside from being totally unecessary, it takes an ending that's intentionally difficult and troubling and sugar coats it. The stories of the crew are over. It doesn't matter where they end up after the fact. They made their contributions to Shepard's legacy, and the end of the game is about the single choice that Shepard has been led to over the course of three games. When Shep steps onto the citadel, the narrative becomes about the fate of the galaxy, not about the individuals within it.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Jamfalcon » 03 May 2012, 15:51

To clarify, I'm not saying there should be another Mass Effect, I'm saying there almost certainly will be another Mass Effect. Personally, I'm of the opinion that BioWare should leave the IP as three fantastic games and not try to top them with anything in the same universe, be that prequels, sequels, MMOs, or what ever.

What I'd love to see from BioWare is a new IP that isn't traditional fantasy or sci-fi. Whether it's modern, historical, or something a bit more unusual (like what Jade Empire did), I would be very interested to see what they came up with. They have talented people, but it'd be nice to see them try their hand at something a bit more original.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Matt » 03 May 2012, 15:58

I'd be happy to see them let ME end.

On the flip side, I'd like to see another game in the universe, I'd just like it to have nothing at all to do with the events of the core franchise.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 03 May 2012, 16:01

How about the First Contact War as an RTS?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Matt » 03 May 2012, 16:02

No RTS. I'm bad at playing RTS games, and frankly, EA is bad at making them.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 03 May 2012, 16:38

I want a pony.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Matt » 03 May 2012, 16:40

Seconded.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 03 May 2012, 16:42

I also want to stop this 'um' feeling about the ending of Mass Effect 3 to go. I got so emotionally invested in the 3rd game, I'm having trouble processing it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby JackSlack » 03 May 2012, 23:01

Matt wrote:Yeah, I felt the ending was pretty much bang on thematically


Seriously? I thought thematically the end of the game came out of fucking no-where, and posited a basic conflict that I spent the entirely of the Rannoch missions disproving.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Cybren » 03 May 2012, 23:32

Matt wrote:Yeah, none of the endings were objectively "good", which felt perfect for the "your choices have consequences" structure of the series to date. It was the perfect final choice.

-m

None of your choices had any consequence besides filling up a score bar, itself an absurd mechanic that was as anachronistic as asking you for quarters every time shepard dies.

Aside from being totally unecessary, it takes an ending that's intentionally difficult and troubling and sugar coats it. The stories of the crew are over. It doesn't matter where they end up after the fact. They made their contributions to Shepard's legacy, and the end of the game is about the single choice that Shepard has been led to over the course of three games. When Shep steps onto the citadel, the narrative becomes about the fate of the galaxy, not about the individuals within it.


So, the game about the consequence of your decisions is about the legacy of the consequence of your decisions but no matter what decisions you make your legacy is identical?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 04 May 2012, 00:39

JackSlack wrote:
Matt wrote:Yeah, I felt the ending was pretty much bang on thematically


Seriously? I thought thematically the end of the game came out of no-where, and posited a basic conflict that I spent the entirely of the Rannoch missions disproving.


Don't forget the Catalyst is still only a machine and isn't able to change it's programming without outside help in the same way EDI can. I was surprised Shepard didn't bring up Rannoch and the geth/quarian outcome as an example of how the Catalyst is wrong, but I doubt the Catalyst would have listened anyway.

Maybe the Catalyst was the AI on the Citadel in the first game that was stealing money? Or a fragment of it at least? Just a thought.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 04 May 2012, 03:04

I think Shepard may have just been too tired to argue.
Poor explanation I know.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Geoff_B » 04 May 2012, 03:06

Quick question, are we still using spoilers or are we going to assume that everyone knows the ending by now?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 04 May 2012, 05:47

I assume everyone knows the ending or would have been exposed to it despite how hard they tried to avoid it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Jamfalcon » 04 May 2012, 07:29

And even if they don't know it, I doubt anyone that's reading this thread cares about spoilers, since that's pretty well all that we've talked about it in for the last month.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby LogicSword » 04 May 2012, 09:08

Editing the title.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Matt » 04 May 2012, 09:42

JackSlack wrote:Seriously? I thought thematically the end of the game came out of fucking no-where, and posited a basic conflict that I spent the entirely of the Rannoch missions disproving.


I don't think it's fair to say the ending was thematically out of left field. It wasn't. All three games have had major central themes about the interactions between synthetic and organic life, and the final choice was an obvious culmination of that thematic thread.

Now you can argue that it was narratively poor for the exact reason you've noted (though I disagree with that argument, obviously) but thematically? I'm not sure how that claim holds up. The final choice takes the conflict central to the last three games and puts it's resolution in your hands. Do you control synthetics, destroy synthetics, submit to synthetics, or unify wuith synthetics?

Relating too the natrrative point, the implications of the Rannoch mission are a lot less superficial than simply proving that synthetics and organics can coexist.

On the one hand, the Geth are an infant race complared to the Catalyst. The Catalyst is potentially millions of years old. The Geth are merely thousands. The Catalyst is the final legacy of the first cycle - the end product of all organic and synthetic life within. The Geth are the first sentient synthetic race of this cycle. The fisrt thing they did was nearly eradicate their creators. Yeah, you brought an end to that war, but what happens the next time someone picks a fight with the Geth? You're talking to a supreme mechanical being who has seen the same pattern of synthetic prevailing over organic for millenia.

On the other hand, yeah, you did manage to bring peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The unification of those species behind the banner of their collective rights to existence are what help you get to the citadel at all (assuming, of course, that your mission on Rannoch ended with both the Geth and the Quarians offering their support - the mission doesn't actually have to play out that way). Shepard's presence on the citadel - confronting the Catalyst - demonstrates that organic life has advanced to the point where they have become formidable - The reapers no longer provide a suitable counterbalance to the galaxy's natural march towards chaos. The Catalyst's system ceases to be viable. Organic life has ascended, and met the synthetic god character as an equal, and is now given the choice as to how it will proceed. Organic life has reached a point where the triumph of synthetics is no longer certain, and will no longer be certain in future cycles. The solutions you choose, then, all stem from this point.

You can choose to subjugate the synthetic - forging the role of the organic as the superior form of life.

You can choose to destroy the synthetic - and risk that the cycle of synthetic uprising begins anew.

You can unify the synthetic and the organic - and create a new future, at peace, moving life into a new form where syntetic and organic are equal, unified, and symbiotic. Ending the cycles of destruction and rebirth completely.

Alternately, (though not explicitly) you can also choose to let the reapers do their thing. This is sort of an unwritten option.

In context - these all seem like pretty natural outcomes for the story, dependent on how you played your shepard.

The fact that no one ending is clearly right or good also makes the ending of the game really interesting. Each solution is apropriate to the story, but they all have clear down sides. It's a choice that makes you consider what the Shepard you built would do - and what that means for the galaxy you've inhabited.



Cybren wrote:None of your choices had any consequence besides filling up a score bar, itself an absurd mechanic that was as anachronistic as asking you for quarters every time shepard dies.


Narrative consequenses - not mechanical ones.

The core of ME3's narrative was the resolution of storylines opened over the previous three games. The choices you made in previous games exerted substantial influence over the events and structure of ME3, and the choices you made in ME3 dictated the final outcomes of those storylines, even if their impact on the mechanics of the game were marginal. (Though they certainly did have influence over the narrative options available to you in the final mission).



So, the game about the consequence of your decisions is about the legacy of the consequence of your decisions but no matter what decisions you make your legacy is identical?


the 30-second cutscene is identical [similar, really]. That 30-second cutscene is NOT shepard's legacy. That 30 second cutscene is the denoument of the game following from the chioce you made at the game's resolution.

Shepard's legacy is the 120 hours of gameplay you sunk into the games as you played through them, as well as the narrative results of shepard's final decision. Shepard's legacy is that of the galaxy's savior, or destroyer, or god, based on the outcome you choose.

That cutscene is just an irelevant little tidbit in the millena of galactic progress you have just had a hand in shaping.

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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 04 May 2012, 12:44

All that needs to be done is explain why trees magically sprout out of the concrete when Shepard awoke after being knocked out.
And the shadowy oily figures in Shepard's dreams and someone whispering his name. And the hum on the Normandy.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Matt » 04 May 2012, 13:06

Yup. That and the kid. Still working that out, tbh. It's there for a reason.

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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 04 May 2012, 13:23

The thing that worries me are that the plot holes of the dreams, hums etc are parallel to the descriptions of the accounts of experiencing indoctrination attempts. Yet the VI on Asari homeworld didn't recognise it affecting Shepard, so disconnection of continuity of that thought, or perhaps the Reapers were trying to be more subtle.
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Matt » 04 May 2012, 13:46

there's definitely something goig on there. An external influence of some sort. It absolutely does fit in with the idea of indoctrination, and it would be totally asinine for Bioware to not play that angle. Shepard should be fighting indoctrination at this point. She has spoken directly to, and in the presence of, two different reapers at this point, and that's not even factoring in the reaper tech that was undoubtedly used by Cerburus to rebuild her.

I've not quite gotten my head around how it all fits together yet, though.

I'm NOT convinced that the end sequence was all a dream, nor am I convinced that Shepard was fully indoctrinated, but something is definitely being alluded to. That shit don't make it into a game by mistake.

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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Geoff_B » 04 May 2012, 13:48

I reckon the kid is just a kid. There's a moment I missed the first time around, it's when you and Anderson reach the part where you first fight the husks. The kid runs to the door (which you shortly enter to meet him) chased by a couple of husks, and the door opens for him and shuts behind him.

Shepards dreams are due to the stress on him. After all he's at the front of a galactic war and seen hundreds die, some at his own hand (Arrival DLC). Who wouldn't have nightmares out of that?

As for why the Catalyst appears as the kid, maybe the Catalyst read Shepard's mind and chose a form to which Shepard had become emotionally attached.

As for the trees, Shepard's just been hit by Harbinger's attack. Why wouldn't he be dazed and hallucinate things?

That probably is a bit too simplistic and probably doesn't explain everything but it'll do for me.

As for no consequences, remember how you felt when the Krogan were cured and finally had hope for a future, or when you successfully (or otherwise) brokered peace between the quarians and geth? Or even hearing Hackett's speech to unite the galaxy and seeing the largest assembled space fleet ever pour through the Sol relay to take on the most ancient and powerful enemy ever? Nope. No consequences at all.

(PS get the soundtrack if you haven't already)
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Re: Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

Postby Matt » 04 May 2012, 13:58

Geoff_B wrote:I reckon the kid is just a kid. There's a moment I missed the first time around, it's when you and Anderson reach the part where you first fight the husks. The kid runs to the door (which you shortly enter to meet him) chased by a couple of husks, and the door opens for him and shuts behind him.

Shepards dreams are due to the stress on him. After all he's at the front of a galactic war and seen hundreds die, some at his own hand (Arrival DLC). Who wouldn't have nightmares out of that?

As for why the Catalyst appears as the kid, maybe the Catalyst read Shepard's mind and chose a form to which Shepard had become emotionally attached.

As for the trees, Shepard's just been hit by Harbinger's attack. Why wouldn't he be dazed and hallucinate things?

That probably is a bit too simplistic and probably doesn't explain everything but it'll do for me.


That's too simplistic. These things - the dream elements, the child, the catalyst - they are connected in some way. If Bioware weren't trying to connect them, there would be literally NO reason for those elements to be presented when, where, and how they were.

The dreams closely resemble the effects of indoctrination as described by the datalogs.

We've never seen Shepard have to cope with the stress of the war in this way before.

There's no indication that the Catalyst has read Shep's mind, or that it has assumed it's particular form on purpose.

The elements are, however, visually connnected. Bioware wants us to know that these elements are connected to eachother and have some meaning. What that meaning is is unclear.

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