Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

[Geoff_B]

The Reapers? They turn up every 50,000 years, wipe out all civilisations and turn the members of those civilisations into goop to create more Reapers. Because as far as I can see they literally don't know any better because some whiny kid AI tells them to.

If anything they turned out a lot simpler than what was implied in earlier games.

[RedNightmare]

Indeed. Sentient, my ass!

[Geoff_B]

Another tumblr rant. This whole controversy thing must have really gotten to me.

[Elomin Sha]

Just completed ME3. The writer in me is finds the ending I had fine (neither good nor bad). The gamer in me is more on the side of not good.
Obviously it misses the point on a few things but I have no real issues (at the moment).

[Geoff_B]

Which ending may I ask? Or did you go through all of them?

[UnarmedOracle]

Is this where I go to talk about what the ME3 endings mean? Because I'd like to without being told that they're garbage and that they raped my dog or whatever, so can we just take that conversation as read?

Okay, here goes:
I think it's implied that the Catalyst is the first AI, and that it's responsible for creating the Reapers. It may say as much explicitly, but I don't remember right now. It knows that synthetics tend to destroy organics on a long enough timeline not only because it's watched it happen thousands upon thousands of times but because it's done it itself.

So, the Reapers were at one point meat cuttlefish living on a planet instead of metal cuttlefish hibernating in an entropically-favorable environment outside the galaxy. They develop mass effect technologies and/or synthetic life. The synthetic life destroys them, and turns them into their present form, which is essentially a von neumann machine with language skills. At some point it names itself the Catalyst, which is a name that means something.

Why? Maybe the Catalyst doesn't like competition? By jumping into the big green thing, Shepard introduces herself into the Catalyst's matrix, allowing all life in the galaxy to make the same jump that the Catalyst made, however long ago. Because Shepard is both living and unliving (or however you want to phrase it) both organic and synthetic life make the jump. The Crucible makes this possible by altering the Catalyst.

So, a catalyst is this thing that opens a pathway but itself is unaltered. The Catalyst seems to be holding the galaxy in an invisible stasis that even the Reapers don't seem to really understand. They're fanatics, but the ones we speak to don't really offer up much in the way of self-awareness. They're the biggest husks.

But okay, we've got the Citadel and the Mass Relays and they're all Reaper artifacts, but which Reapers? How many of the Reapers are the first Reapers, and how many are from later cycles? There must be quite a few originals to have crushed the following cycle, right?

Also, several people mention that people act very complacent while on the Citadel. They're hard to motivate, hard to mobilize. So it's plausible that this isn't just politics-as-usual-lol but a form of super-passive indoctrination.

Anyways, my point is that there's a lot of interesting questions floating around out there, and we've been told to keep our save games and even if we weren't I'd still want to talk about it.

[psychopez]

Spoiler Quote of UnarmedOracle out of quote blocks to preserve spoilerness:
Also, several people mention that people act very complacent while on the Citadel. They're hard to motivate, hard to mobilize. So it's plausible that this isn't just politics-as-usual-lol but a form of super-passive indoctrination.
/SpoilerQuote

...oh, I love this line of thought. I'd never even considered this...that goes all the way back to ME1...

[Geoff_B]

Yes this thread is a lot friendlier than *cough* certain other ones.

If you're interested here's my take on the ending.

[UnarmedOracle]

@Geoff_B: Interesting, I dig it.

I'm not sure how useful it is to speculate on some things, but it's still fun:
At a guess, I'd say that whoever the Reapers were pre-Reaping designed the Crucible as a countermeasure against their other creation, the Catalyst. I agree that synthesis is what the Crucible is for, and I would wonder what the point of keeping the mass relays around post-synthesis even would be. Everyone's an immortal synthetic being? No instantaneous point to point travel? Take the scenic route! Can't grow dextro-amino acid food on your levo- planet? Good thing you probably don't need to eat anymore. This rules!

Also, I'm really glad that there were endings that didn't involve killing the Reapers. Even killing a few seems like such an atrocity. Each one represents the death of billions ... It should have made someone in-universe wonder why they'd risk armed conflict at all. Turns out they don't really think much about it because they big dumb bastards don't even realized that they're not the ones in charge.

[Geoff_B]

Well any ending is going to leave more questions than it answers. Maybe it's better that way? Like the old guy said at the end, many of the actual details have been lost to time

[UnarmedOracle]

Oh absolutely. Endings that try to answer all the questions tend to bore me. I'd rather have something interesting to talk about and that tends to require ambiguity.

[Geoff_B]

Actually, one thing I'm surprised nobody's said anything about is this.

It seems that this is why there's a Getty Images mention in the credits - it's based on this image

[UnarmedOracle]

I'd really like to think that's a bit of trolling by Bioware. I'd have been happy to not know what Tali and the Quarians look like inside those suits. Secretly, I was holding out for "gestalt spider organism".

[LogicSword]

My opinion on the ending keeps changing every five minutes, but I'm growing slowly more and more to like it, I have to admit.

I personally like to agree withthe Indoctrination Theory, just because the whole ending sequence seems too jarring with the rest of the game, with too many plot holes and contradictions that are incredibly obvious to spot and so clearly aren't anything other than deliberate.

It strikes me that Bioware wanted to try and create an Inception type ending, which was meant to be discussed and have various theories grow around it, genuinely creating an interaction between them and the players. The problem is that the video game community isn't as mature as it believes itself to be.

Also, I like Tali's picture, it's nice to have just a little query like that answered as an Easter Egg. Plus the fact that I think it worked as a look for Quarians probably biases me.

[UnarmedOracle]

I quite like the indoctrination theory, or if not indoctrination at least a theory acknowledging that there's a lot of dream logic at play after you pass through the conduit.

Somewhere secretly I suppose I was hoping that Bioware had some post-"end" DLC in mind relating to that theory, and that we'd hear about it once the game had launched world-wide, but I'm worried that might not be wishful thinking so much as the denial stage.

[LogicSword]

I like to be optimistic that that's what their plan was all along, I just don't think they were expecting the outcry to be as large as it was. They're kind of in a catch-22 now, because if they don't release any DLC then people will hate them for the worst crime against humanity ever but if they do release DLC then that will just add to the entitlement of gamers and make everyone convinced that they just did a rush job of the ending.

[Geoff_B]

Well it's not like the outcry could get any worse now is it?

[LogicSword]

Not releasing DLC would leave it strong, but it'll probably disappear relatively quickly. Releasing DLC would possibly lessen it, but also lengthen the time people were ranting about it.

[Geoff_B]

Hooo there's a notice on the Bioware forums now about abuse against individuals. Seriously it's stuff like this that make me almost ashamed to have the label "gamer".

Edit: Okay it's been there for a couple of weeks. It may just be a coincidence.

[LogicSword]

That was there because of the abuse hurled at Jennifer Hepler(calling her a the cancer of gaming, sending rape and death threats to her home number etc.) and the reason why, as far as I'm concerned, Bioware have every right to screw gamers over in any way they seek fit.

[Fawlkes]

I'm late to this thread, but whatever

My take on the ending:(in spoiler just incase):
My problem is it just didn't make sense, the whole thing is Deus ex Machina (god from the machine) and thats just a lazy way to wrap up the ending to Mass Effect. The biggest thing that doesn't make sense, Catalyst, and all that aside, how did the "mortal" races of the cycles even begin to make the crucible? they couldn't possibly have made it knowing it would summon forth the Catalyst like that, the first race to start making the crucible probably weren't the people who made the catalyst, and no other race would be designing anything but a weapon, a death star if you will. So that just didn't make sense to me.

I was fine with the ending, it was dumb, but it was alright... UNTIL they destroyed the Mass effect relays (which happens no matter which end you pick). And All of my hate for the ending focuses on that, The Mass effect relays are what made Mass Effect unique, better than any other Science fiction out there, and they destroy them. I wanted the series to go on, I wanted to play a future story that doesn't have anything to do with Shepard, but that can't happen, I want to travel at Mass Jump speed, not light speed, Light speed's too mainstream. Listen to me, i'm a space travel hipster O.o

So story aside... anyone else enjoying the multiplayer as much as me? thats why I came here in the first place. I play Krogan sentinal, I love Gold maps

[Fawlkes]

@UnarmedOracle
For the record I like your Idea, I really do, but it doesn't help me get over the ending

Also the indoctrination ending is a cool theory, but makes me mad at Bioware, this means they intentionally released an unfinished game so they could sell me the rest later, that would be like going through all of Mario and when I try to enter Bowser's castle it asks to buy the "Bower's Castle" DLC, it comes with the games ending and a new hat for Mario

[psychopez]

Spoiler time, boys and girls. And I think I'm repeating myself, but I don't know if I put this here or another forum...

Responding to Fawlkes' issue --
Spoiler:
So, if there's one thing I really like, it's the fact the Mass Relays are gone.

Before the start of the game I pegged either the destruction of the Mass Relays or the Citadel. Those are Reaper (okay, Catalyst) tech. If you want to live a life free of the Reapers, destroying the Relays/Citadel is a symbolic representation of that.

Maintaining the use of the tech is a subtle submission to the Reapers. An ending without the Relays or the Citadel shows that life has gone on, but for the first time in eons, if ever, it's doing it on its own, and not shaped by the Reapers.

Now, narratively, would it make sense in the red or blue endings for the relays to remain, sure, I could be argued either way. But keeping the relays keeps you in the Garden. If you wish to taste from the tree of freedom and survival, you have to find your own way. At least, that's how I see it.

[Fawlkes]

Spoiler time, boys and girls. And I think I'm repeating myself, but I don't know if I put this here or another forum...

Responding to Fawlkes' issue --
Spoiler:
So, if there's one thing I really like, it's the fact the Mass Relays are gone.

Before the start of the game I pegged either the destruction of the Mass Relays or the Citadel. Those are Reaper (okay, Catalyst) tech. If you want to live a life free of the Reapers, destroying the Relays/Citadel is a symbolic representation of that.

Maintaining the use of the tech is a subtle submission to the Reapers. An ending without the Relays or the Citadel shows that life has gone on, but for the first time in eons, if ever, it's doing it on its own, and not shaped by the Reapers.

Now, narratively, would it make sense in the red or blue endings for the relays to remain, sure, I could be argued either way. But keeping the relays keeps you in the Garden. If you wish to taste from the tree of freedom and survival, you have to find your own way. At least, that's how I see it.

I apologize If you are repeating yourself, i'm lazy and thats a bad thing.
Safety Spoiler:
And yeah I see that, that's a fair way to put it,I like the bible analogy but I have a different one, I think of it more as free ourselves from the heel of a cruel government, they used us, they commited terrible tings, but they also built schools and hospitals, i'm not going to get rid of the hospitals just because they have the dictator's face on them, i'll just paint over it. Thats my opinion anyway. And personally from the start I didn't like the crucible, I just wanted to build a huge fleet, AND I MEAN HUGE, and take the reapers head on, I never once thought I needed a mcguffin to take them on. Although i'm big into the head canon side of th fan base
Also I thought of that, but I also thught of the fact that niether side in the war would want to risk destroying the relays or citadel, they are too valuable to both sides, and it would have taken a long thought out reason for my shepard to risk them like that, not just a kid saying "hink dink heres our choices, no you have no say in he matter, go".

[psychopez]

Fawlkes, I like you. We can disagree on things but have a civil conversation. -fistbump- And don't worry, I'm jsut saying I've talked about this on like 4 different forums, so I forget what I've said where, and I didn't feel like searching the LRR thread(s).

Heck, this is one of the things that's great about the Mass Effect world in general, there's a lot of meat on the bone to chew on.

Spoiler:
Yes, but schools, the bricks and timber themselves, don't have a history of employing extremely subtle mind control effects. Could you/would you risk everything on the fact that maybe it's the Mass Relays / Citadels themselves that the Catalyst used to make the First Reapers. Sure, you wipe out the existing ones now, and the Catalyst just starts again.

In 300 years or so...or 3000 years, what's time to a being like the Catalyst, it just starts anew...

Basically, frame this better, and it's a Paragon/Regengade choice..ahh! But one that was made for you. Okay, yeah, I can kind of understand that ire now.

Also, as an aside, the Crucible bothers me more than the Catalyst does. If it had even been hinted in any of the previous games / outside materials, I could buy it, but I didn't like having that thrown in my face right at the start; MacGuffin stains are the hardest to get out.
/Spoiler