Mass Effect 3 - SPOILERS!

[Lemegeton]

still processing all of this. the more i think about the more i accept the IT. the little kid is the strongest link for me. Throughout the whole series countless people close to Shepard died and yet this little boy he saw for 5 minutes on earth dominate his nightmares. that does not make sense and when you factor in how the boy seemed out of place and was ignored by everyone besides shepard it clearly suggests he is not really there.

and knowing bioware and how much work they put into the writing and the story of these games i just cant accept they would write an ending THAT sloppy, even if it was a last minute re-write.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

Shepard is stressed you noob!

Yeah he lets Samara commits suicide and executes her Orphaned daughter, but um...

[JackSlack]

For those who support the Indoctrination theory:

Please explain what, thematically and narratively, the game gains from this twist. Why would Bioware decide to end the game this way?

If the Indoctrination Theory is true, I charge, it's a technically brilliant manoeuvre that does nothing but further weaken the game.

[Matt]

For those who support the Indoctrination theory:

Please explain what, thematically and narratively, the game gains from this twist. Why would Bioware decide to end the game this way?

If the Indoctrination Theory is true, I charge, it's a technically brilliant manoeuvre that does nothing but further weaken the game.

That's the problem I have with it - it makes the narrative way more coherent, but utterly destroys the value of the events.

About the only thematic or narrative value it has is to reinforce the idea that the cycle continues unabated.

-m

[JackSlack]

Duckay inspired me to think that a really cool ending might have been one which wiped out all higher life along with the Reapers. The very final 'throwing the torch forward'. Yes, you fail to save the galaxy this time.

But the next one, finally, is free.

That would have been cool. A neat 'break the cycle' that would have been genuinely bittersweet.

(She charges the Destruction ending kind of has that flavour, but I don't think it's quite right.)

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I had suspected that all the humans would have to die to save the Galaxy.

Doesn't mean I wanted that ending, but that was what I thought would have to happen.

A sub-plot of ME series was proving humans had a right to exist with the higher races. A huge racial sacrifice would have finally put out the flame of prejudice.

[JackSlack]

I considered the question of 'How should humans relate to other sentient life?' to be one of the dominant themes of the series; keenly observed in 1 and a key aspect of 2. (Inevitable when you make Cerberus the focus.) Still present even in 3, though I agree downplayed there.

By contrast, though, I found the 'AI is a dangerous concept that will destroy us all' to be a very weak theme of one and actively argued against in 2. And yet they ended with the damn thing.

[Lemegeton]

Shepard is stressed you noob!

Yeah he lets Samara commits suicide and executes her Orphaned daughter, but um...

Shepard is no more stressed in more this game then he has been for the whole series. there is no logical reason why he is focused so intently on one little boy he didn't even know. out of all the people that died over the course of the series. it makes no sense for this unknown boy to affect him THAT much.

and i don't know what kind of cold bastard your Shepard was but both Samara and daughter are perfectly fine in my game.

[JackSlack]

@Lemegeton: That was really uncalled for.

[Lemegeton]

I considered the question of 'How should humans relate to other sentient life?' to be one of the dominant themes of the series; keenly observed in 1 and a key aspect of 2. (Inevitable when you make Cerberus the focus.) Still present even in 3, though I agree downplayed there.

By contrast, though, I found the 'AI is a dangerous concept that will destroy us all' to be a very weak theme of one and actively argued against in 2. And yet they ended with the damn thing.

thats why i am leaning towards IT. too many things in the ending directly contradict events throughout the game. Bioware have put so much effort into a coherent story for the entire series i don't accept that they could leave so many plot holes and contradictions in the ending. There are just far too many clues that point to the ending being an attempt at indoctrination to be called coincidence.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I thought people knew green was sarcasm in these forums.

Perhaps I should have made the rest of the sentence green too.

[Lemegeton]

@Lemegeton: That was really uncalled for.

I have been playing video games for over 25 years. I don't react well to being called a noob when my point is perfectly valid.

if his post was intended as sarcasm then i apologize

I thought people knew green was sarcasm in these forums.

Perhaps I should have made the rest of the sentence green too.

my apologies i did not realize. please forgive my outburst, the noob thing is a bit of a sore spot with me.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

It was.

[Geoff_B]

Shepard is very stressed in this game. You can see him/her slowly breaking down over the course of the game. Shepard would have to be some kind of emotionless robot to not be affected by everything that happens, especially when his/her friends, who have been so loyal and important over the games, start dying, eg. Mordin, Thane, even that Turian lieutenant whose father asked you to save him. On top of that the fate of every life form in the galaxy is at stake. Failure here doesn't mean subjugation or slavery, it means extinction. Who wouldn't feel even a tiny bit of stress at that weight on their shoulders. What I don't understand is how people can attribute such stress (call it PTSD because that's what it is) to Reaper influence.

I agree with everything Matt and Jack have said. I will only accept the indoctrination theory as true is if Bioware comes out with an extension to the game.

[empath]

@Lemegeton: That was really uncalled for.

I have been playing video games for over 25 years. I don't react well to being called a noob when my point is perfectly valid.

if his post was intended as sarcasm then i apologize

I thought people knew green was sarcasm in these forums.

Perhaps I should have made the rest of the sentence green too.

my apologies i did not realize. please forgive my outburst, the noob thing is a bit of a sore spot with me.

Well, 1) it's green ITALICS that have been referred to as 'sarcastic text', 2) it's by no means an established rule rather than a custom used by some (and *I'm* one of those 'some'), and 3) sarcasm can still be rude and inflammatory - it's by no means a 'get out of jail free' card.

[Lemegeton]

yes obviously shepard is very stressed and there is no disputing that but as you say many people died that shepard could not help. it makes no sense for the boy to dominate his dreams. the boy has to be the reapers messing with his mind.
i also dont accept that after all his taunting of Shepard in mass effect 2 that harbinger would not confront him during the final battle. i accept that the ghost child in the ending is harbinger

[Geoff_B]

Well I guess we'll find out the answer when the extended cut dlc comes along.

[Matt]

So, uh, picking the destroy ending rather fundamentally changes the implications of the end of the game, eh?

-m

[JackSlack]

In a rather uncertain fashion. I'm not sure even Bioware understood what that shot meant. That said, playing it through again? Thessia really hammers the "no, for serious, kill them" angle.

[JackSlack]

Everyone, please read Sparky Clarkson's fantastic discussion of some of the themes of Mass Effect and what might have been a brilliant, subtle tweak to the ending.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I think. If we worry too much of what might be, we forget about what is.

I mean, as an analogy of a point the author was wanting us to discuss feels similar to should we use contraception for sex? Hundreds of people could potentially not exist because sperm and ovums never had a chance to meet.


The author used the analogy of a pine forest for civilisations.
Firstly, that's a only one example of an environment. The main issues of Pine Forests is when retards think it's smart to plant non-native pines. Real pine forests have an ecosystem as all life have adapted to grow there. With dense forests, you will have some plants which are vines that will try to climb trunks to reach the light. Nature is a war, but it's fought on both sides. You also have random factors like disease, weather etc. These ecosystems can stay sustainable, healthy without the intervention OF GIANT DEATH ROBOTS.

I am not saying these themes aren't brought up in ME3. I'm saying this Philosophy's reasoning via analogies was so very wrong.




I think another thing is, if there were a civilisation that lived for EONS then it wouldn't matter to us, as we wouldn't exist. Not living is fine if we never were conscious to begin with. Besides, all great empires fall. in Star Wars, the Rakata Old Empire fell because they suddenly lost their connection to the Force and their slaves abused this momentary weakness.

[JackSlack]

I am not saying these themes aren't brought up in ME3. I'm saying this Philosophy's reasoning via analogies was so very wrong.

You're right that he's cherry picking analogies, and that reasoning by analogy is always suspect. But there's so much truth to this throughout the ME games; over and over, the powerful older species make decisions to impact the younger ones. Now, there is an obvious counter-example: The Rachni were an older species toppled by a younger one. But for the most part? Time and time again, we see it with the Krogan, with humanity (who were in danger of being wiped out, at a high cost, true, but nonetheless) at the hands of the Turians, and with the newly created Geth at the hands of the Quarians. As he points out, we're also seeing the beginnings of it, again, with the Yahg.

And better yet, it's one that is reinforced by the themes created from play: You can't deny that you've been playing god throughout this whole series of games. Over the Rachni. Over the Geth. Over the Krogan. Over the Geth (again) or Quarians.

That's the key point to his discussion; it's a way of looking at Mass Effect that neatly ties into all the decisions you were making and forces you to ask yourself about if you even had the right. True, some could argue that this has an essential unfairness to it (after all, the game doesn't let you choose to not choose) but even so, it ties into the game's core in a way the Synthetic/Organic one simply didn't.

Plus, you can't invalidate it before you reach the end of the game.

I think another thing is, if there were a civilisation that lived for EONS then it wouldn't matter to us, as we wouldn't exist. Not living is fine if we never were conscious to begin with. Besides, all great empires fall. in Star Wars, the Rakata Old Empire fell because they suddenly lost their connection to the Force and their slaves abused this momentary weakness.

That's a value judgement. Is it? It's one of the aspects that would have been built into a final moral judgement based on that ending. Destroy the Reapers? Or let them reap, accepting that your civilisation has met its point of decay, wherein it does more harm than good?

Of course, it occurs to me that there is a powerful irony in an ending that questions the morality of playing god, by having you end by playing god over all species. To save them, or not? One might argue as a point for destroying the Reapers that somebody is gonna play god. Might as well be you.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

Extended Cut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y7xk1_x ... r_embedded


What's mentioned is that to fully make use of the update, start your saved game before you attack the Cerberus base.

It's good that they seeded the updated quite well into the game so it hopefully won't feel tacked on... but frustrating that I have to play through the whole emotional-end-sequence again (DON'T JUDGE ME). Only gripe.

[RedNightmare]

So, this is going to sound weird to some of you, but I'm a little scared of downloading the Extended Cut next week.
I chose the Control option in the end, because as the Catalyst explained it ("You will die. everything you are will cease to exist, but you'll control the reapers") I interpreted it that Shepard would die and the reapers would get his world view, attitude and such. I found this a nice thought and chose it (I was a little unsure what Synthesis meant, otherwise I might have chosen it)
But what if the Extended Cut tells me thats not what happens? That Shepards mind stays intact somewhere? I think this might actually devalue the ending for me.
I don't want to whine, but thats just something that popped into my head the other day.

[Geoff_B]

I've been waiting for this and now it's going to be released next week! And my laptop's in a repair shop waiting for a verdict on whether or not the graphics card can be salvaged! And I've not been able to back up my savegames beforehand so I'll probably have to start from the beginning of 1 and that may not even be until September because I'm away for most of August!

Oh irony, why do you do this to me?