What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

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What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Preacher » 08 Apr 2012, 02:09

Okay, so this has been bugging me for a while, and I apologise in advance if [See When] this turns into a rant.

I'm specifically talking about D&D here, the Lawful Good Alignment seems like a terrible, terrible thing. First off, you can't lie. While this seems like a minor thing. I would like to see anyone go a full day without lying once. Then go on for a week, then a month. There are times when you need to. In D&D, those times generally involve you trying to save the life of someone, or yourself. Not being able to lie normally involves said people dying.

For example, My cleric is Lawful Good. a quest involving a former cleric-turned-etten(two headed giant) and the town he has been terrorising. Now we tracked the etten to his lair and had just about saved the town. At which point the half of the towns population showed up. The DM had meant for this to be a dramatic and critical turning point. One murdered Etten and a mass grave for all the townsfolk we killed later. We skipped back to town. Where the people asked what happened to their friends. I was required to lie and say that the etten killed them, not my friends. And which point the DM hands me a note saying "Herionious is displeased with you". Punishing me for lying. But at the same time, that lie meant I saved us from murdering the other half of the town.

Granted I'm not the nicest person/player ever. I mean I reguarlly chose evil options in computer games, and I realise that there is an appeal to be a Paragon of justice and pretty much become the Virtue of All Badassary. But we have Paladins for that, thats what they do. That's why they're restricted to Lawful Good. For anyone who doesn't have that authority. Lawful Good seems like a liability. The spells are generally weaker, sure the neutral spells are okay, but then again evil characters get them, and more powerful evil spells that kill people a hell of a lot more easily than any good spell I've come across. While I'm not one to insult healers, healing doesn't mean squat when the rogue takes no damage and murders half the room, with the fighter killing the other half from the next room with a longbow. So why does it exist. Apart from Cosmic balance. Is there some point to it I've missed, or am I just a terrible, terrible person (not a completely invaild possibility), who is comtemplating throwing the Cleric off a bridge and derailing the DM's entire story arc for the sake of being able to lie

/rant (Again, sorry, but this is really bugging me)
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby RedNightmare » 08 Apr 2012, 02:19

It really depends on your interpretation of Lawful Good I guess. The way you discribed it here I would agree with you, it's just way to restricting. However, I believe that a character can be Lawful Good even while sometimes breaking alignment. I mean, if a Evil character would show compassion for a spouse, that wouldn't make him Neutral all of a sudden, right? Same goes for LG characters. Sometimes you need to lie for the greater good. But as time goes on that becomes as slippery slope and that's where things get interesting, RP wise.

For me, Lawful Good is more like Samuel Vimes from the Discworld book. The man has a strong moral code, but in no way is he a nice guy.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Drinnik » 08 Apr 2012, 02:40

Also, Batman is lawful good.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Preacher » 08 Apr 2012, 03:04

Drinnik wrote:Also, Batman is lawful good.


I have heard this. I brought this up after I attempted to interrogate a person who was deciving us and generally dodgeing vital questions. I got the "God Is Displeased" Messege again. Also, Batman lies. So according to this definition, hes at least Netural Good
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Geoff_B » 08 Apr 2012, 03:55

Superman is Lawful Good - as in Lawful Stupid Boy Scout.

I would say Batman straddles the line between Neutral and Chaotic Good. He is unshakeably good but he's not above playing with the law when he has to. Heck even the fact that he's a vigilante is against the law.

Lawful Good looks like it would be fine for strong RP'ers but otherwise I would find it too restrictive. Actually if you see the movie "The Gamers 2 - The Dorkening" it shows how annoying playing with a Lawful Good character can be and the number of ways they find to work around him, such as the other characters sending him out of a room looking for any lurking enemies while they torture a demon prisoner.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Drinnik » 08 Apr 2012, 04:08

To be fair, Batman is also Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaitic Evil all at the same time.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Geoff_B » 08 Apr 2012, 04:19

He's just that awesome :D
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Jamfalcon » 08 Apr 2012, 07:57

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Onto the main topic: I'm personally not a fan of the alignment system for exactly this sort of reason. It's too vague, and quite possible to contradict yourself. For example, a lawful character is supposed to support the government, and a chaotic character doesn't care about it and will change if it's cruel/they don't like it/they want anarchy, depending on alignment. But that means that voting against the current government is both a lawful and chaotic act.

When I do run a game with alignments, I tend to be pretty lenient about them. Lawful good, to me anyway, doesn't mean you have to be a saint. It just means you are a generally good (as in selfless, willing to help people for no reward, ect.) and lawful (doesn't break the law is the main one here). Like you said, expecting someone to never lie is ridiculous, especially in a D&D context. I would never require that from a Lawful Good character (unless they were a paladin, but that's a whole other discussion),

I'm personally a big fan of a well played Lawful Good character, but when they're played up too much, especially when it doesn't mesh with the party, they can be a real annoyance. For example, I once played a character that was a Lawful Good Knight (as in the class from the PHB2). He had a over inflated opinion of himself, a poor sense of self preservation, and would challenge someone to a duel at the slightest provocation. Evem though that campaign only lasted about ten sessions, he remains one of my favourite characters, so much so that my avatar is a picture of him.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby theDreamer » 08 Apr 2012, 08:00

My friend plays a lawful good pali.

He follows the laws of the land to the letter.

The DM once sent them to a place where murder was illegal, so my friend arrested his entire party.

Another time, they went to a land where the punishment for theft was murder. He tried to kill their rogue.

It was an...interesting game.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 08 Apr 2012, 08:05

Rorschach is Lawful Good.

Lawful means following a code of conduct without exception, and whilst it can be the law of the land it does not necessarily have to be. It means you have principles and you stick by them. Superman generally follows a Lawful path, either by adhering to the law of the land or by general social principles, though he has had lapses.

Good means you do things generally for the benefit of others, rather than for your own deeds or the detriment of others (Evil) or just go with whatever suits your mood or the situation (Neutral). Superman again is our paragon here, always acting for the benefit of others.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Drinnik » 08 Apr 2012, 11:54

A way to get around it is not to lie, but you don't have to tell the truth.

Example;

"Who killed the townsfolk?"

"A bunch of reprobates who are outside my ability to grant justice. But fate will catch them."
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Exachix » 08 Apr 2012, 11:54

My personal take on LG and all alignments is some leeway, and I see the scale, not as a full grid, but as a pair of sliding scales. You can be anywhere on 2-d grid, but for good roleplay it's not necessarily important. In addition, I see alignments governing intent, not always the actions.

I would take it as 'generally act nice and for other people, and generally follow the rules.' which is as written, but I'd add, as I would with all 'extreme' alignments, that at the time of an action you choose a half to suppress. For example; you'd either choose to follow the laws as it is, or choose to act in a way for the benefit of the people. You'd try to not, but obviously occasionally one would win over the other.

As a GM, I'd only start questioning alignments if a player consistently went against their alignment. For example, if occasion after occasion a lawful good character acted in a manner to selfishly hoard or murdered people. One-off events, particularly those that are well justified, do not mean a character is bad or against their alignment. If they become too frequent, maybe their alignment needs shifting.

As no alignment debate goes without other alignments being included.

I'd disagree with some statements that chaotic is wholly 'against the regime'. A chaotic character can accept and work in society, but won't necessarily agree with what their ruling body does or says. In the same vein, an evil character can save people (but usually for his own machinations/sadism, but a good reason for anything is always useful.


Back to the original point...
Lawful good is (probably) for people who want to play a member of society who tries to do his best for the people, while operating within the rules. But they don't have to be stuck-up people who pulls everyone to justice (that, in my opinion, is a very lawful act in itself), and maybe doing so is detrimental to the party dynamic (internal conflict is not always good).

tldr:
Extreme alignments should feel free to suppress one of their alignments in certain situations. This goes for Chaotic Evil too.
You don't have to play LG as a party-hating character. Even when working within the rules fun can be had =).
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Geoff_B » 08 Apr 2012, 12:13

Lyinginbedmon wrote:Rorschach is Lawful Good.

Lawful means following a code of conduct without exception, and whilst it can be the law of the land it does not necessarily have to be. It means you have principles and you stick by them. Superman generally follows a Lawful path, either by adhering to the law of the land or by general social principles, though he has had lapses.

Good means you do things generally for the benefit of others, rather than for your own deeds or the detriment of others (Evil) or just go with whatever suits your mood or the situation (Neutral). Superman again is our paragon here, always acting for the benefit of others.


I thought Lawful had to follow the rules of the governing body of whatever land they happened to be in without exception, even when it went against their own personal principles, and chaotic characters were allowed to follow their own code even if/especially when it clashed with the law.

And that is an awesome Batman alignment grid :D
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Rikadyn » 08 Apr 2012, 20:42

theDreamer wrote:My friend plays a lawful good pali.

He follows the laws of the land to the letter.

The DM once sent them to a place where murder was illegal, so my friend arrested his entire party.

Another time, they went to a land where the punishment for theft was murder. He tried to kill their rogue.

It was an...interesting game.



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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby JackSlack » 08 Apr 2012, 21:08

The point of restrictive alignments, to me, is that they are restrictive; it's that they make things hard, they increase the drama.

It's like why I never play high wisdom: Doing stupid things is just way more fun than being smart. You don't get fun stories out of people who don't sometimes do stupid things.

Lawful good can create stories, because it forces you to create ramifications.

Also, alignment systems suck. Always have.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Preacher » 09 Apr 2012, 06:03

So I'm pretty sure we're all, for once, in agreement here. Batman Is Awesome.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Drinnik » 09 Apr 2012, 06:39

Buffy is another Lawful Good character, up until she died the second time, anyway. She has a strict code she follows, looks out for everyone and can't stand injustice. She does lie, but she always does the right thing, not because she wants to, but because she has to.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby vazhkatsi » 10 Apr 2012, 19:04

frankly, your dm seems to have a picture of what LG is, and wants you to stick to it. in our games, alignments are a lot more relaxed and useful. unless your god specifically prohibits lying, i see no problem with it. however, you chose to worship Heironeous, the god of paladins, and he tends to get pissed when his clerics don't act in a way befitting his name.

for 2 different lawful good outlooks- OOTS, roy is LG, and he lies, has a generally good moral compass, but his quest is very good, and he is generally good. and then theres the paladin girl whose name escapes me at this particular time, LG, and lawful stupid. she follows the letter of the law so far that she practically dooms the world. but the whole time she is being the perfect paladin.
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Re: What's The Point Of Lawful Good?

Postby Preacher » 10 Apr 2012, 20:54

Right, so I think I see what your saying. So long as I'm on the whole Lawful, and 90% of the time act as in the vein of Roy. I should be good for meeting the standards of Lawful Good. However, that fact that I'm dedicated to Heironeous, God of All People With Sticks Surgically Implanted, is the issue, lying, using posions, stabbing peoples whose backs are turned, are not Paladin traits. As such, I should avoid them.

Should point out that I was given this character, I didn't roll him to start. If I did, well, think Emperor Palpatine crossed with Cthulhu, with a dash of Machiavelli as the type of character I normal play. Hence my issue of not understanding Lawful Good
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