The Game Venting Thread

[ch3m1kal]

It's interesting in RPGs how durable some enemies are. You shouldn't live for long if you've been stabbed multiple times in the gut.

Are there any RPGs where the more hurt you are, the less damage you deal? Like how IRL might be.

Off the top of my head, The Banner Saga works pretty much exactly like that.

To some degree, the old Fallout games sort of work that way, where if you land a critical on an arm or the eyes, they're crippled and chance to hit decreases drastically, and with it actual damage output.
I guess Lionheart and Arcanum would too, since they're based on the same game system.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

Cos with games like Dragon Age Origins, after you get stabbed multiple times through the heart, you fall down to the floor. If the battle is won, you get back onto your feet and heal instantly, but only sustain say, a broken leg, AFTER BEING STABBED IN THE HEART.
Would be nice if games were more realistic with their... damage-to-living-things systems.

[Mara Kalat]

...
Some games, like Vagrant Story, also have "durability" for different parts of the body, but I don't remember it ever being relevant in Vagrant Story.
...

In Vagrant Story a critical body part meant a reduced related attribute.
So a wounded head impeded spell casting, weapon hand reduced striking power, shield hand the block rate, etc.

So it's a pretty good example of what we're talking about.

Mara.

[Dutch guy]

Gahh, Brothers in Arms; Earned in Blood, Y U so difficult...

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

It's the Pokemon World Championships (VG and TCG) right now.
I go and watch it cos my Twitter feed is alight with it (I tend to not enjoy watching competitive gaming). Interviews and then a break. I think "I'll come back later".
Interviews and break.
I'll try later.
Interviews and break.
Ok, I'll wait this out. 25 minutes later, still break.

God fucking damn.

The commentator is a good host. I was thinking, I wish the VGAs were done like this. And then the floor interviewer said in response to an English person: "Wow. Engerland. That's a long way away!".

DUH.

[ch3m1kal]

Not sure if this belongs here or the general venting thread, but I kind of hate Steam these days.

Just earlier, I fire up Steam: "Ohhh look here's a sweet looking stealth game, called Invisible Inc. that just came out aaaaaaand it's fucking early access"

Can we please stop this bullshit? Early Access is a terrible, terrible thing.
Paying to be a beta tester is idiotic, pre-ordering digital goods is pointless and we really need to stop encouraging this behavior.

[GDwarf]

I don't mind Early Access, as it can work quite well for some titles.

What I find frustrating is that they're on the same part of the store as full releases and there's nothing to indicate that they're EA until you click on them and load up their store page.

Mind you, I find the entire "New Titles" section to be frustrating. It's too small, too hard to scroll through, and is just a mess. At least the latest Steam client (might be Beta only, not sure) lets you have multiple Steam windows open at once by middle-clicking on stuff, so you can check out multiple new titles without having to return to the main page and then slowly scroll down ten times).

[Mara Kalat]

...
At least the latest Steam client (might be Beta only, not sure) lets you have multiple Steam windows open at once by middle-clicking on stuff, so you can check out multiple new titles without having to return to the main page and then slowly scroll down ten times).

This is in the main client too now, and it's a life-saver.
As for the general topic, I would also like to see Early Access games tagged more visibly (maybe with one of those ribbons DLC (green) and music (red) have in its logo except blue?), in general though, I have nothing against the praxis.
We've always had unfinished games on Steam that were still being worked on, this just makes them easier to spot... though it does kind of give the false message that it's okay for developers to 'release' unfinished products.

Mara.

[ch3m1kal]

... though it does kind of give the false message that it's okay for developers to 'release' unfinished products.

Mara.

Thank you, that is precisely my point. We're creating a gaming culture where it's OK for developers to sell a broken, unfinished product and I just think that is the worst possible idea.

I also think Steam carries a fairly large amount of blame for the fact that according to its own terms of service developers have no obligation to ever complete their Early Acces titles.

When will these games release?
Its up to the developer to determine when they are ready to 'release'. Some developers have a concrete deadline in mind, while others will get a better sense as the development of the game progresses. You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current state.

[Kapol]

I said it before, but deleted it for not wanting to start an argument. I think the only real major problem with early access is allowing games that are basically alphas or early betas onto the store with little functionality. Games that are pretty much broken or have almost no features yet.

But if a game is in a late-beta kind of stage, then it's not as bad. If it's playable to a decent degree, I feel that's enough. But the best use for early access is when the game is already pretty polished, maybe in early-beta to late beta, but has most of the bugs fixed and major features added. Then having updates to fix bugs that may pop up (since that does happen for the best of games), add new levels and features, and make the game more and more finished.

Like Viscera Cleanup Detail is still early access. But the game is polished and doesn't seem to have any major issues that I've scene. But they're changing features, adding levels, and generally working to improve the game on a level higher than just patches. Which seems to be a good use for the system. While I didn't play it, games like Wasteland 2 that are also released in a fairly early stage, are fine. If they're 'fixed' at that stage.

I think the problem is both with the fact that Steam doesn't punish people for not actually finishing their game, and the fact that Steam's overall quality control seems to have gone to shit. For example... Air Control is a fully released game. It is not early access. It is not free. It is a game that Valve allowed to be on their system and allowed people to pay money for. That still kind of blows my mind.

[AdmiralMemo]

Like Viscera Cleanup Detail is still early access. But the game is polished and doesn't seem to have any major issues that I've scene. But they're changing features, adding levels, and generally working to improve the game on a level higher than just patches. Which seems to be a good use for the system. While I didn't play it, games like Wasteland 2 that are also released in a fairly early stage, are fine. If they're 'fixed' at that stage.

I think the problem is both with the fact that Steam doesn't punish people for not actually finishing their game, and the fact that Steam's overall quality control seems to have gone to shit. For example... Air Control is a fully released game. It is not early access. It is not free. It is a game that Valve allowed to be on their system and allowed people to pay money for. That still kind of blows my mind.

Yeah, that's the thing that bothers most people: If Early Access didn't exist, we wouldn't get gems like VCD. However, removing EA would still not prevent things like Air Control.

[Kapol]

Well, I think we'd still get VCD in particular. With it's cross-over and independent Christmas release, it had enough funding. It'd likely have just been released as a full game with bigger 'patches' (like Goat Sim added a full level). I feel the early access thing is more of a warning that there still might be bugs, like small things clipping through the floor, and that mechanics and such might change as it's more developed.

I suppose a better example would be that Prison Architect game. I've heard it's a pretty decent game for the series at least. And it started with a lack of features. More are constantly added. It warns right upfront that it is an alpha and glitches and bugs can occur. I also find it interesting that it offers kickstarter-esque rewards as well. And it's a game that actually seems to need the extra development budget to put in all the features the dev want.

Or, to put it another way, Minecraft likely would have been originally released as an early access game on Steam. At least if the program had been around at time. And it'd be a good example of that system.

...but that's me going on a needless rant.

[empath]

Yeah, the real thorn is Steam's ToS regarding Early Access and the giant, gaping loophole.

Also, I feel any game tagged "Early Access" shouldn't be in the main Store, but in a subsection of the Greenlight page (you know, the place where these 'Games to be' used to hang out before it was easier to get onto Steam than sign up for gmail?)

[GDwarf]

I don't know that Valve can do anything to devs who don't complete games they put up for early access, other than removing the title from the store. Gamespot can't sue publishers for releasing broken games, after all.

As for Steam's quality control: Valve is, by all accounts, doing everything they can to remove all curation from Steam. Their end goal seems to be to have the store essentially run itself, with users tagging/voting/rating titles and such.

On the one hand, I get the appeal. You don't want one company deciding by itself what does and does not get any digital exposure. You also don't want to be perceived as the company that's responsible should a game turn out to be crud. On the other, well, what's the point of Steam if it doesn't have at least basic curation?

[Kapol]

I don't know that Valve can do anything to devs who don't complete games they put up for early access, other than removing the title from the store. Gamespot can't sue publishers for releasing broken games, after all.

Make it so that the developer of the game will no longer be allowed to publish their games on Steam. That should be a pretty good incentive. There are a lot of people out there who won't buy a game if it's not on Steam. Alternative, make it so they just aren't able to publish 'early-access' games anymore. Either sell the finished product, or don't publish it at all.

That wouldn't stop everyone. But it'd at least make it seem like they're trying to do something.

[qupte]As for Steam's quality control: Valve is, by all accounts, doing everything they can to remove all curation from Steam. Their end goal seems to be to have the store essentially run itself, with users tagging/voting/rating titles and such.

On the one hand, I get the appeal. You don't want one company deciding by itself what does and does not get any digital exposure. You also don't want to be perceived as the company that's responsible should a game turn out to be crud. On the other, well, what's the point of Steam if it doesn't have at least basic curation[/quote]

For the appeal, honestly... I don't agree with that. Not having some quality control leads to trusting games overall less and less. From what I understand of the video game crash long ago, the issue was that the market was being flooded with crappy 'games' that weren't really anything. Which was why the Nintendo 'seal of quality' became kind of important.

But that's getting on a bit of a side track. I feel like the fact Steam is basically trying to automate all this is more lazy than anything. Why waste money hiring people to check the games that are submitted to you when you can just have the community decide what gets on the store? And with early-access, the barrier to being 'accepted' has seemed to have dropped quite a bit.

I think one of the big problems is that Steam has frankly gotten big enough that it can stop giving a shit to some degree. Vast tracks of the PC gaming community are kind of locked in using Steam to some degree. There are a lot of PC games that require Steam now. So they're at the point that they just don't have to care as much anymore. People seem to forget that Steam is DRM. And I worry the more power any companies gets, the more they can get away with letting their DRM go to shit.

[Master Gunner]

What I'd like to see is a time limit on how long an early access game is available, and perhaps link it to Greenlight. So for example, when you put up an Early Access game, it will only be available for 1 year or something. However, it also gets submitted to Greenlight, and if it gets enough votes there, then you get a six month extension. After that, you either submit your game to full release on Steam, or it gets automatically taken down.

[ch3m1kal]

So basically give developers the opportunity the screw over customers for up to 18 months then give them a blank slate?

[Geoff_B]

How about limiting the number of users who can get an early access game? Then when the game is updated the limit can be raised.

[Mara Kalat]

How about limiting the number of users who can get an early access game? Then when the game is updated the limit can be raised.

I... actually really like this idea. Huh.
It gives early adopters something to strive over, boosting initial sales, but also limits the damage an early access game can do.
Better yet, there's no reason for it to be on the store's front page if it's out of "slots" for buyers.

Mara.

[empath]

Thank you, Geoff - that appeals to me as much as it does to Mara.

[Geoff_B]

Woohoo! I had a good idea

[empath]

Dammit I HATE Abandoned Mineshafts in Minecraft, I ALWAYS get hopelessly lost in them!

[Prospero101]

First off, hit F3 while you're at your homestead, and write down your X and Z coordinates (Y is height/depth, so it doesn't matter quite as much). Then, if you ever get lost in a cave or mineshaft or whatever, find the nearest wall and dig up in a staircase pattern. Once you get to the surface it's a small matter of hitting F3 again and finding your coordinates again.

Alternatively, you can download any number of modpacks that install minimaps and waypoints.

[empath]

Well, I was digging a spiral staircase down to a) make the start to a 'cellars' of my holding, and 2) get some cobble for building the above-ground stuff...and then I broke into the complex...right within sight were TWO chest-minecarts with nice stuff in them, and I meant to go back and dig that staircase down to a level where I can get redstone (I never bother with complex stuff, so it becomes my 'trail of breadcrumbs home' for spelunking...but I ran out of picks and didn't have any wood on hand, and all those wood planks were just sitting there, cosmetically supporting the mineshaft ceilings...

...and as I managed to clean out one hallway, that turned into another, because there were more chests, and what's around this corner and...next thing I knew...hopelessly lost.

In the end, I did another spiral staircase up (after making a workbench and more picks) and finally broke up maybe ten chunks away from my holding - the tower of which was visible.

...and now I've got a 'backdoor' into my holding; I've closed off access to the mineshaft (for now - I'll probably have to quarry out some underground galleries for stuff to build the above-ground stuff...)

But now I return to digging down and getting myself a stack of shiny dust that'll lead me home if I ever get distracted again

And I was running with the debug overlay...but I'd never bothered to make a note of my 'home' co-ords...

[romangoro]

The Minecraft upgrade just ate all my stuff.

Well, it's more complicated than that. So, the launcher auto-upgrades, and I'm tired and didn't really think about it. So I start playing, so far so good, trying to finish the dome I've been making (never try to freehand circular things, btw). But the game is running kind of choppy, bad framerate and just slow. I toy a bit with the settings, and it really doesn't improve, so I decide to downgrade. Edit profile, set version, save, Play.

And now I'm empty-handed.

And ALL of my chests, each and every one of them are empty.

I haven't been this frustrated by a game in my life. I guess I'll take a time off from the game Maybe go creative to finish my projects and then try some mods, yeah, that'll lift my spirits.