Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby Jamfalcon » 14 Jun 2014, 14:19

It's a very different game in person, because it is so much easier to overlook a quiet person when. Here, you have the whole history in writing in front of you, but caught up in the moment, all the focus (good and bad) is on the more talkative people.

But I think part of decided to play Mafia is accepting that there's a not insignificant chance that you'll end up sitting out most of the game. Someone will be killed the first night, two if there's a vigilante, maybe three if there's a lynch. So it's just a game of figuring out what does and doesn't work, and playing the situation to draw fire away from yourself.

As for day one lynches... that's a strategic discussion that's been had a lot of times, and I tend to fall on the side of going for it. Some setups don't really justify it in a roleplay sense, but I feel like it is in the town's best interest to take the risk and fire first (so I generally advocate it when I'm mafia too, to not draw attention). I get why some people feel waiting for information is better, but generally, in a standard game, I'd rather not lose the player for a few tidbits.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby AdmiralMemo » 14 Jun 2014, 14:33

Jamfalcon wrote:I think part of deciding to play Mafia is accepting that there's a not insignificant chance that you'll end up sitting out most of the game.
Well, for one, that was not explained to me when I thought I might start playing. Second, I didn't realize until now that these games actually do typically last for several weeks. When I first started, I was thinking that it was a game that you get finished in one to two weeks, and start another one. (My game that got interrupted by Desert Bus, Christmas holiday times, and a house fire, notwithstanding.)
Jamfalcon wrote:Someone will be killed the first night, two if there's a vigilante, maybe three if there's a lynch. So it's just a game of figuring out what does and doesn't work, and playing the situation to draw fire away from yourself.
That, in and of itself, is fine with me. I guess I'm just of the mindset of what Extra Credits said about "Failing faster." If I'm out the first game day, but I know there's going to be a new game in a week or two, I'd be OK with it. If I'm out on the first game day, and I have to wait 2 months for the next game to roll around, I just know I'll end up sitting there for those entire 2 months moping, depressed, kicking myself for being an idiot and not knowing how to play the game right, with thoughts of suicide flitting through my head the whole time, while everyone else is having a good time.

If I can't talk to other people about something I'm interested in, I get very depressed. And if I'm "dead" in the game, I can't talk to anyone.

Here's a thought: Is there any way to set up some sort of "spectators" type of thing for people not in the game to talk about it? That might help my personal issue. I don't know if others would be interested in that, though. I know it'd be fun for me. It'd be like doing sports commentary on an ongoing game.
Jamfalcon wrote:As for day one lynches... that's a strategic discussion that's been had a lot of times, and I tend to fall on the side of going for it. Some setups don't really justify it in a roleplay sense, but I feel like it is in the town's best interest to take the risk and fire first (so I generally advocate it when I'm mafia too, to not draw attention). I get why some people feel waiting for information is better, but generally, in a standard game, I'd rather not lose the player for a few tidbits.
I don't know... I mean, I can understand the Day 1 Lynch argument, and I'd be good to go for it with the right backing (see even this game right here), but I haven't heard the discussion "lots" of times. Since I've started playing, it's been brought up once or twice that I can remember.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby korvys » 14 Jun 2014, 15:28

I actually missed your role claiming, Memo. I got the club part, but not the 4.

My strategy (and I'll admit it may not have been the best) was that I was willing to sacrifice myself or another town member to get more information. Along with your ability to claim a card to protect yourself (or provide some very compelling evidence that another play was a liar if they claimed and you were killed) I didn't feel like you were in any danger, unless you were lying.

I think something to remember is that you win if your TEAM wins, even if you're dead. But, if you're not playing, I can appreciate it does feel like you've lost.
AdmiralMemo wrote:Here's a thought: Is there any way to set up some sort of "spectators" type of thing for people not in the game to talk about it? That might help my personal issue. I don't know if others would be interested in that, though. I know it'd be fun for me. It'd be like doing sports commentary on an ongoing game.

That would be a cool idea, actually. Everyone dead could just PM each other?
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby AdmiralMemo » 14 Jun 2014, 16:15

korvys wrote:I think something to remember is that you win if your TEAM wins, even if you're dead. But, if you're not playing, I can appreciate it does feel like you've lost.
Oh what? That totally has not been clear to me this whole time. I was under the impression that the Town (or Mafia) who were alive at the end won. The "group" won, but if you were dead, you weren't part of the group anymore.
korvys wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:Here's a thought: Is there any way to set up some sort of "spectators" type of thing for people not in the game to talk about it? That might help my personal issue. I don't know if others would be interested in that, though. I know it'd be fun for me. It'd be like doing sports commentary on an ongoing game.
That would be a cool idea, actually. Everyone dead could just PM each other?
I'm thinking not just anyone who's dead, but also non-players as well. :)

Also, I had another idea: Mafia via IRC. Maybe we could do it on the Desert Bus IRC server or the LRRcraft IRC server, and have 2 channels: "Game" and "Spectators"
The "Game" channel would be voiced, so only people with a voice could speak, and if you died (or didn't join in at first), your voice got removed, but you could still watch. Then, over in "Spectators" people could discuss the game that's on-going, and the players would not join that room until or unless they died.

It might combine the fast-paced nature of IRL play with the ability to go over what everyone says that the forum game has going for it.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: Fifth Hand

Postby romangoro » 14 Jun 2014, 18:18

AdmiralMemo wrote:I don't even understand what you're saying here, let alone trying to understand why it may or may not be good logic in the game... Clarify, please?


Sorry, explaining that stretched too much my limited english. All I meant to do was give a few examples of what I expect from a mafia game, specially between friends: eveything is valid as an argument for everything, and that's part of the fun. To try to put it in LRR terms: it would be OK to blame Matt because he always crashes the bus, or to kill Paul because he's always the body anyway.

A good thing of playing on a forum is that it evens out the personalities: it doesn't matter if you tend to be quiet and have a hard time making yourself heard, since everyone must talk one at a time.

The idea of an IRC game sounds nice, but I'm out, I can't type english fast enough.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby korvys » 14 Jun 2014, 20:31

AdmiralMemo wrote:Oh what? That totally has not been clear to me this whole time. I was under the impression that the Town (or Mafia) who were alive at the end won. The "group" won, but if you were dead, you weren't part of the group anymore.

I mean, it might as well be the case, cause you don't get to play anymore, but yeah, that was my understanding.

Incidently, while I have no interest in running a game, it would be interesting to have a game where the dead people can still influence it. At the extreme end, maybe they become vengful ghosts and can kill people. In another, maybe there's a psychic role, who can talk to the dead (who maybe can learn things about the other players.)

It would keep everyone in, and could add a lot, at the risk, though, of becoming very confusing, and hard to balance.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby Tapir12 » 14 Jun 2014, 20:35

AdmiralMemo wrote:I guess I'm just of the mindset of what Extra Credits said about "Failing faster." If I'm out the first game day, but I know there's going to be a new game in a week or two, I'd be OK with it. If I'm out on the first game day, and I have to wait 2 months for the next game to roll around, I just know I'll end up sitting there for those entire 2 months moping, depressed, kicking myself for being an idiot and not knowing how to play the game right, with thoughts of suicide flitting through my head the whole time, while everyone else is having a good time.


I wanted to respond to this. In addition to what was said about your side winning even if you have been killed (which is absolutely true and means you can strategically sacrifice yourself for the greater good if you so choose) I will add that getting killed in mafia DOES NOT mean you are playing the game wrong. Sometimes you get killed for absolutely no reason other than the fact that someone had to die and they happened to pick you. A lynch provides information, but it means someone has to get bumped. If you look back at the older games you'll also realize that the best players, like Master Gunner when he used to play, would often be killed off right at the beginning of the game simply because the mafia new they were a threat because they played the game so well.

So getting killed does not mean you are playing the game wrong. It may be pure chance or it may actually be because your too good for the mafia to leave alive.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby JackSlack » 14 Jun 2014, 22:20

Yeah, actually, go look at my performance in Eikoandmog's jRPG mafia. I deliberately goaded people to kill me because I'd become this weird is he/isn't he focal point that distracted people from the mafia. (And I'd pegged one correctly, which was awesome smug face.) Getting myself killed removed that distracting element and was bad news for the mafia.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: Fifth Hand

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Jun 2014, 23:45

romangoro wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:I don't even understand what you're saying here, let alone trying to understand why it may or may not be good logic in the game... Clarify, please?
Sorry, explaining that stretched too much my limited english. All I meant to do was give a few examples of what I expect from a mafia game, specially between friends: eveything is valid as an argument for everything, and that's part of the fun. To try to put it in LRR terms: it would be OK to blame Matt because he always crashes the bus, or to kill Paul because he's always the body anyway.
Alright, I understand what you're saying now. However, that... doesn't really fly with me.

If Matt and Paul were in a game of Mafia with me and someone made an accusation along those grounds, I would not hesitate to finger them as being Mafia. Going after Matt in the game because "he always crashes the bus" is neither in-game logic nor meta-game logic. That's some sort of bizarre moon logic, since "Matt crashing the bus" has nothing to do with either the game being played, nor his history or personality, which could influence the game.
Making an accusation like that would seem to me to be designed to confuse or misdirect, which simply signals to me that you're up to no good.
Tapir12 wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:I guess I'm just of the mindset of what Extra Credits said about "Failing faster." If I'm out the first game day, but I know there's going to be a new game in a week or two, I'd be OK with it. If I'm out on the first game day, and I have to wait 2 months for the next game to roll around, I just know I'll end up sitting there for those entire 2 months moping, depressed, kicking myself for being an idiot and not knowing how to play the game right, with thoughts of suicide flitting through my head the whole time, while everyone else is having a good time.
I wanted to respond to this. In addition to what was said about your side winning even if you have been killed (which is absolutely true and means you can strategically sacrifice yourself for the greater good, if you so choose), I will add that getting killed in mafia DOES NOT mean you are playing the game wrong. Sometimes you get killed for absolutely no reason other than the fact that someone had to die and they happened to pick you. A lynch provides information, but it means someone has to get bumped. If you look back at the older games you'll also realize that the best players, like Master Gunner when he used to play, would often be killed off right at the beginning of the game simply because the mafia knew they were a threat because they played the game so well.

So getting killed does not mean you are playing the game wrong. It may be pure chance or it may actually be because you're too good for the mafia to leave alive.
Well, it's one thing to sacrifice yourself for the good of the team. I kind of did that during the MLP Mafia on the second-to-last day, to give my remaining compatriot a fighting chance. I kept the focus on me, even though I knew I was going down, to try to help my compatriot fly under the radar. That felt good, fair, and like I had control of some part of the situation, if not all the variables.
It's a completely different thing to get thrown under the bus "for the good of the team." The first feels fair, while the second, while maybe objectively a good move, feels bad.

I disagree with the "a lynch provides information" aspect. All a lynch tells you is who the person was, Mafia, power role, or town. That is not very useful information, in my opinion. Yeah, you say "Oh well, you see who voted for them, and how it ended up," but that's hindsight logic. With a good enough discussion before-hand, you shouldn't have to lynch someone just to figure out something. I think you should have a good enough argument already prepared, with your logic and facts lined up, and the lynch should merely be the final step that either proves or disproves your theory. The problem even with this, though, is on the outcome. If your theory is proven, good job! You got a Mafia! However, you're back to square 1 with next to ZERO information anymore. (By Day 2, you'll have more info due to the Mafia hit and the power roles doing things.) If your theory is disproven, though, it's really bad... First, you're down a townie, and possibly a power role, with an almost guaranteed second one being taken out at night. Second, you're going to have a giant target on your head, so if you're not Mafia, Day and Night 2 might end with another two townies gone. So, best-case scenario is you get what you expected and very little more. Worst-case scenario is that you start Day 3 with 4 townies gone.

So the question becomes: Why risk a Townie on Day 1 if you're just going to hit randomly? If you've got a good argument, go for it. But if it's just random to see what the results are, I think you can do better than that. That's like saying "Let's kill and dissect a cat to see how its organs work." Yeah, you'll get some information by doing that, but did you really need to kill the cat to do that? Couldn't you have observed its actions and movements beforehand first to get a good idea of what's going on, before you do more drastic action?

Regarding your last statement, yeah, I can see being a power role or a good player making you a target. If you're doing well, or have a power role, it feels fair that they want to eliminate you. It's like equal footing. But if you're a vanilla townie, there's literally nothing more you can do. I played the game mediocrely, was a Vanilla townie with no special abilities, and I still got targeted on Day 1.

You say "it may be pure chance" in your statement... Well, I don't know about you, but I didn't come to play Mafia for pure chance. I've got MtG, poker, and other games for that. I thought this game was about deductive and inductive reasoning, not random violence.

Finally, I never got a straight answer out of anyone regarding my question:
AdmiralMemo wrote:If I could get some tips on how to "not act suspicious" that would be great for any future games of Mafia, whether I'm a townie or a Mafia. Apparently, acting "normally" for me is "suspiciously" for everyone else.
Could it just be my lack of interpersonal skills rearing its ugly head? Am I just going Aspie, or maybe full-blown Autistic, in this?

If I've gotten this game all wrong, then maybe I should indeed leave.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 16 Jun 2014, 00:40

As far as I can tell, there are no rules on how to act non-suspiciously in Mafia. Arguably the main point of Mafia is that everyone spends their entire time paranoidly accusing everybody else for 40% of a good reason just fo' shits & giggles, so pretty much any behaviour can get you lynched if someone "decides" that today is just not your day. Alternatively, just go all-out on the accusatory train, since those people tend to survive longer than one typically might expect.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby Kapol » 16 Jun 2014, 00:50

One thing that I did want to add is that, for the aspect of lynching someone being them being basically 'kicked out of the game,' I feel the same way. It kind of makes me feel bad. If I pick the wrong person, then I feel like garbage. If I hit mafia, then I'm at least doing what I should be doing. That's part of the reason I took a bit of a break from the game.

It's worse when I am the Mafia. I hate helping decide 'this person doesn't get to play anymore.' It's one of the reasons I normally don't like being a member of the mafia. I normally root against the mafia even while in the mafia. But I still want to win, and I still try to win.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby Conoros » 16 Jun 2014, 00:55

In IRL, I play with a group of about 10-12 people. 3 of us are Irish and the rest are English. Every day someone tries to lynch one of the Irish purely because of the "Irish Rule."

Other spurious accusations occur such as "I heard X pointing"
"X needs to buy me a drink, so I am going to lynch him"
"X lynched me last game, so I am going to lynch him this game"
(For ultra-realism, replace X with Conor in 95% of circumstances)

It is really just a case of point and hope, though you have the spectator option IRL too
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Jun 2014, 01:01

Ix: I see what you're saying, and I think I could totally go for it if the cycles were a bit shorter.
The game you describe sounds more like a game of "Paranoia" than what I was presented with.
But if I go in with a set expectation of failure, then maybe I won't feel so bad if I make a bad call that costs my team the entire game. I'll have to mull that one over.

So perhaps it's just that: a failure to meet expectations. Like, if you go into a card game expecting to play poker and you end up playing bridge, you probably won't have as much fun, even if you like playing bridge.
Conoros wrote:"X lynched me last game, so I am going to lynch him this game"
I could actually get behind this logic. It's meta-gaming, but it still works, since it's based off of character and actions. The others, not so much, at least to me.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: TOWN WINS

Postby Phailhammer » 16 Jun 2014, 02:20

Kapol wrote:If I pick the wrong person, then I feel like garbage. If I hit mafia, then I'm at least doing what I should be doing.


I felt a bit like this as well, but I had a hit of instant karma, so I guess it balances out. :D

As for the meta-gaming, I know someone who is (almost) always a Cylon/Mafia/spy/whatever, so everyone is always immediately suspicious of him. XD
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: Fifth Hand

Postby korvys » 16 Jun 2014, 17:24

I'm genuinely sorry if you were feeling persecuted, Memo. I appriciate that the way you feel isn't something you can argue with, so I'm really just trying to explain my thought process.

I really was just playing the game the best way I felt I could. Based on this quote, I can see why we might conflict:
I disagree with the "a lynch provides information" aspect. All a lynch tells you is who the person was, Mafia, power role, or town. That is not very useful information, in my opinion. Yeah, you say "Oh well, you see who voted for them, and how it ended up," but that's hindsight logic. With a good enough discussion before-hand, you shouldn't have to lynch someone just to figure out something. I think you should have a good enough argument already prepared, with your logic and facts lined up, and the lynch should merely be the final step that either proves or disproves your theory. The problem even with this, though, is on the outcome. If your theory is proven, good job! You got a Mafia! However, you're back to square 1 with next to ZERO information anymore. (By Day 2, you'll have more info due to the Mafia hit and the power roles doing things.) If your theory is disproven, though, it's really bad... First, you're down a townie, and possibly a power role, with an almost guaranteed second one being taken out at night. Second, you're going to have a giant target on your head, so if you're not Mafia, Day and Night 2 might end with another two townies gone. So, best-case scenario is you get what you expected and very little more. Worst-case scenario is that you start Day 3 with 4 townies gone.

I disagree that you have no more info in day 2 or 3. With forum mafia (as opposed to meat-space mafia), you can see what every person said and did on every previous day. By forcing people to act, either to defend someone, or to vote for someone, you get more conversation from people, and have more information to use in future days. Did the thing they said on day 4 contradict what they said on day 1? Is there a pattern of people voting together?

There's an argument to be made that that is what the Finger of Suspicion is for, but I don't think that's enough to get people talking. There's no real consequence if the person just says "I'm not the mafia." and nothing else. Delaying is an effective and valid tactic for the mafia. Along with not getting your coded role-claiming, but remembering that you could claim, I also didn't think you'd be in any danger of actually being lynched if you were town.

So yeah. Sorry. I do hope you'll keep playing.
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Re: Cards on the Table Mafia: Fifth Hand

Postby Kapol » 16 Jun 2014, 17:40

korvys wrote:Delaying is an effective and valid tactic for the mafia.


An example of this happened during this game. Had we not been given extra time (which honestly had kind of annoyed me, as I had been actively trying to stall) I would have survived another day. At which point things might have shifted. I might have had the chance to talk with the other Mafia and figure out a plan. I had intended to lynch one of my own teammates in order to help try to buy more time for the mafia as a whole. But I never was given the chance, because everyone knowing they barely had any time lead to them just going with the person who had the most votes. Which put me in the situation of being screwed. I couldn't lie and not be called out on it. Every town was a specific role, which isn't a normal occurrence. Normally you're just told that you're town without additional details like suits and numbers.

Which leads me to:

With a good enough discussion before-hand, you shouldn't have to lynch someone just to figure out something. I think you should have a good enough argument already prepared, with your logic and facts lined up, and the lynch should merely be the final step that either proves or disproves your theory.


The problem with this is that in most games that doesn't work. Unless someone has actual knowledge (so a power role that puts themselves at risk or Mafia themselves), they're going to be guessing. At that point, the person being accused can just say "I'm not the mafia." There's no way to prove them wrong on that most of the time. There aren't really any established facts to go on other than voting patterns and what they've said. The fact that, in this game, the mafia and the joker couldn't just say they aren't mafia/the joker was actually a design flaw I believe rather than something intentional.

It's fair to say that you should always let the accuse give an argument before being lynched, and I'd agree with that. But that normally seems to be the case already. The only time it isn't is when the accused doesn't say anything. Which is normally why the first or second day is spent lynching people who haven't talked yet, as they're likely not going to be a help anyways and it gets things moving.

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