What You're Roleplaying Now

[JWSemerus]

Just a tangent for this topic, last night whilst playing 3.5 edition my 5th level rogue bought a ring of invisibility. AWESOME. A permanently invisible rogue and there is only a 50% chance of hitting if my AC of 20 is reached. I think I just broke D&D

[Telaril]

One of the things 4th edition did quite well is downplaying the role of skills in how one defines their character. Skills have been scaled back a great deal in general. For a start one doesn't have ranks any more. One is either trained in a skill or not, and all training gives is a +5 bonus. In my books the rules should stay away from role-playing altogether, the purposed of the rules is to define combat interactions. It's for the players to decide how role-playing should happen.

I disagree... and this is from someone who once ran a six month long campaign where dice were rolled perhaps once or twice a session, because almost everything else was determined by roleplaying.

Say there's a human thug guarding the door. You don't want to start a fight because guards patrol the area, so you want to convince him to leave. Now there's a chance that going up to him and saying "You. Leave. Now." will work, and he'll run away. There's a chance it won't. How is this chance represented by the system? In 3.5 it's represented with skills in intimidate and your charisma modifier (I think?)... gnome druid who likes flowers is less likely to be able to carry off this particular approach than, say, your minotaur with a greataxe. However it isn't impossible that she'd succeed, and it might be funnier if she tries.

(Edit Note: I often determine the challenge level of something like an intimidate check based on how good the roleplaying is. If the person thinks of something really intimidating to say, I make it easier. If they just say "I try to intimidate the guy by... I don't know... standing near him," I make it harder)

In a game in which there are no rules governing intimidation, it's entirely the DM's prerogative to decide whether or not this intimidation works. That's fine, you can get a lot of good roleplaying done in games where the DM determines the result of all roleplaying attempts.

But the introduction of risk, of chance, of DICE is why we're not all playing Amber Diceless Roleplaying system (which is a marvelous system that most people hate with a fiery, unrelenting passion). It's the difference between thinking "The DM probably won't let the gnome succeed at this" and "The gnome probably only has a 20% chance of making this roll, but wouldn't it be awesome if she did? Let's try!"

As a DM there are some games in which I think it works best to leave the results of every NPC interaction up to me... but D&D isn't one of them. D&D has always been about probability (don't you mess with me/as long as I stand a ghost of a chance). When I put that thug by that door, I figured out how smart he was, how easily intimidated/seduced/tricked he was, and what skills he had. I figured out how hard it would be for the gnome to intimidate him and how hard it would be for the minotaur. It's up to the players to try to guess and exploit those odds, and then use their dice to determine what happens.

I want to present an anecdote a friend of mine tells of a Shadowrun game he once played. He was the private investigator, and he was looking up information on a contact someone had given them. Just a really ordinary research check. He rolled a fistfull of ones that would take Graham hours to replicate in post. He then had to roleplay that failure... the hideously incorrect information he'd found had led him to believe their harmless contact was secretly a mass-murdering mobster. While the rest of the crew tried to convince him otherwise, he stalwartly refused to bend - he was convinced this guy was a horrible murderer. Eventually they had to give up on that lead and try something much riskier and more foolish. He still lists that occasion as one of the best roleplaying experiences he ever had.

Without dice and interesting skill balances you don't get those fun ridiculous surprises. You don't have to adapt as a GM when your party totally flubs the easy-as-heck appraise roll and ends up back in town with a wagonload of paste jewels. You don't get that insane moment when the gnome rolls high and a thug is intimidated by a three-foot-tall girl dressed in leaves with pink hair carrying a fluffy bunny. You can create those moments, but they lose that spark of randomness. It becomes more about trying to play to the GM's sensibilities than trying to weight your odds and take risks.

A final example: let's take acrobatics. It's what I consider a "semi-combat" skill (intimidate is as well, to a point). Some of the time it's used to, say, swing on a chandelier to go stab a guy. Sometimes it's used to jump through a window in an attempt to make a batman entrance. Should it only require a roll if there's combat involved? I see a lot of the roleplay skills as similar to acrobatics - they're a skill, a technique that your character is either good at or bad at. Whether or not they succeed at jumping dramatically through a window should be determined by something other than "how much they want it" "how cool it would be" and "whether or not the DM's in a good mood." The same thing goes for their attempt to seduce that 20 foot tall stone giant.

[Citin]

I really don't understand the rationality of your post since 4th ed has both intimidate and acrobatics skills. Skill checks are in no way eliminated with everything being left up to the discretion of the DM. Skill checks and skill challenges are just as important as ever.

(Also Insight does not cover perception, perception is it's own skill that covers the same things it did in 3.5)

[Telaril]

I really don't understand the rationality of your post since 4th ed has both intimidate and acrobatics skills. Skill checks are in no way eliminated with everything being left up to the discretion of the DM. Skill checks and skill challenges are just as important as ever.

(Also Insight does not cover perception, perception is it's own skill that covers the same things it did in 3.5)

Sorry. The point of the post was to point out that non-combat skills at different levels enhance roleplaying, which was simply intended to directly refute this statement:

"In my books the rules should stay away from role-playing altogether, the purposed of the rules is to define combat interactions. It's for the players to decide how role-playing should happen."

It was meant as a commentary on that statement alone, not a commentary on 4e specifically. I will admit to not remembering that Intimidate was still its own skill in 4e - I thought it had gotten rolled in with Bluff, but no... that's disguise and forgery. I knew Acrobatics was in, though. I haven't had a great deal of experience with 4e, a lot of what I'm discussing is based on my player's complaints (as I said before, my players all flat-out refused to play a second 4e game. They play one with a different DM who refuses to run anything else).

However since you bring it up:

Let's look at the 4e skill list:
Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Intimidate, Nature, Perception, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery.

And then let's look at Pathfinder: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, engineering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility, planes, religion), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device.

Appraise, Disguise, Perform, Craft are all gone. I can't seem to find any official statement that indicates that appraise is rolled into insight now, though I might just be missing it. (googling D&D 4th edition skill appraise insight doesn't yield any definitive results. The first result is a pre 4e discussion wherein people hope that they keep appraise. The second result is this thread. Possibly house ruled somewhere?) Everyone can ride. Handle animal is nowhere to be seen. You don't need to know anything about geography or the local area.

Now some of these I can understand rolling some of these things in together, but mostly this longer list seems to provide more opportunity for varied and interesting characters.

Secondly, let's look at how skills WORK. In Pathfinder, you get a +3 to any class skills you put points in and +1 for every rank in a specific skill.

In 4e, a skill is either trained or untrained with a flat +5 bonus if it is trained.

This doesn't allow any nuance to how good at something someone is. You are either "a bit good at it" or "meh," whereas in old school D&D you could have a fighter in your party with some light acrobatics who ends up with a +6 and then a monk with a +15 to acrobatics. Effectively, the monk can do all sorts of crazy flips, you know, whereas the fighter is just good at getting out of the way. Or you have one character who has a +4 intimidate and someone else who has a +9 because they're a badass.

Skills are important. I think they went too far in the simplification of them in 4e. I would run 4e if my players didn't feel it was unnecessarily limiting, but I'd probably have to make some house rules about skills. Because damn.

I do believe wholeheartedly that the daily/encounter/at will powers thing is brilliant, and that the 4e combat system is a thing of light and beauty.

[Citin]

Yeah, every 4th ed game I've played in appraise has been rolled into insight. Handle animal and local geography fall under nature, etc.

I'll admit it is different, but I also find it is way easier to bring new people into the game than it was before and since you get less skill points the DC's of many skill checks is just lower.

The 2 main ways they offer to significantly increase skills later in the game is either by taking the "Skilled" feat or by adding +skill items into your games. Not quite as nice as in 3.5 I know but it works.

The skill system in 3.5 in my opinion was bloated. In 4th they really tried to cut it down and probably took it slightly to far. But it is still a great system that does allow characters to shine out of combat as well.

[Telaril]

If you think D&D is skill bloated you've never played Shadowrun. I... tried to play that again last year after not playing it for 3 years and no one could remember how anything worked. Pity, it's my favorite universe.

I honestly don't think that number of skills has anything to do with how easy a game is to teach to newbies. I've found Call of C'thulu and L5R very very friendly to newbies (moreso even than D&D 4e in some cases) and both of them have dozens of skills. What makes things difficult for new players is if the skills don't make immediate sense, or the way you use them doesn't make sense.

[Cade Antilles]

Just a tangent for this topic, last night whilst playing 3.5 edition my 5th level rogue bought a ring of invisibility. AWESOME. A permanently invisible rogue and there is only a 50% chance of hitting if my AC of 20 is reached. I think I just broke D&D

Not quite permanently. Double check the rules on activation. A player in one of my games tried this and failed to realize that it takes a standard action to activate his ring. So, while he was invisible for a while, in combat he'd get one shot and be stuck in the open with everything targeting him. He didn't last very long. He thought he could activate it as a move action. So he'd sneak attack as a standard action, become visible, then use his move action to become invisible again. He was wrong, and his character paid the price. (I did give him some leniency since he failed to understand the rules instead of trying to cheat, so I didn't completely punk him)

On a different subject, I may have opened a can of worms by mentioning 4th Ed. And, for that derailment I am very sorry to those that are tired of this flavor of debate, and don't want to read it here. For those that wish to continue a 4th Ed debate, perhaps a new thread would be in order? This thread is supposed to be about, and I quote:

What kind of games have you been involved with recently? What are you playing now?

As for my current playing, I am thoroughly enjoying the Star Wars game I'm running right now.

[CyberTractor]

My current character for DND is my favorite. (3.5 system, mind you.)

Everyone was gearing up and cheesing characters by making half-orc barbarians, and a giant warforge, and halfelf rogues, and such, and basically tailoring their characters to be damage dealers.

So I made a kobold. He's a sorcerer. His name is Punpun. He has a kitten familiar.

We killed some assassins who were going to kill the city's magistrate, so we all got enchanted weapons. Punpun had a rod that cast magic missile as a free action once a day. He traded it for a gold-covered staff because it was shinier.

My GM laughed his ass off. I gained a level because of innocence. :D

[Telaril]

My current character for DND is my favorite. (3.5 system, mind you.)

Everyone was gearing up and cheesing characters by making half-orc barbarians, and a giant warforge, and halfelf rogues, and such, and basically tailoring their characters to be damage dealers.

So I made a kobold. He's a sorcerer. His name is Punpun. He has a kitten familiar.

We killed some assassins who were going to kill the city's magistrate, so we all got enchanted weapons. Punpun had a rod that cast magic missile as a free action once a day. He traded it for a gold-covered staff because it was shinier.

My GM laughed his ass off. I gained a level because of innocence.

Now THAT'S roleplaying xp. Awesome.

...

I did something to my players last week that I feel kind of bad about. I refuse to railroad unless it's absolutely necessary. They were riding through the forest with a caravan, and they were attacked by a group of incredibly incompetent bandits. When the bandits found out they were losing, they tried to run away, and several of them escaped into the forest. The party managed to capture one of them, and decided they were going to go back to the bandit's hideout and steal the treasure/take the bandits out.

The thing is, the place they were led back to was obviously a pub/grange hall. There wasn't any treasure, just food and booze. I thought their reaction would be "Haha, ok, we're going to leave now." Instead they decided to stake out the pub and attack anyone who came in.

Of course, the first people who came in weren't bandits. They were just two guys. The bandits didn't own this pub or anything, it was just where they met to divvy up and get drunk. So they spent the whole rest of a night in a pub waiting for bandits to show up. At the end of the night, just as they had sort-of-captured the high level rogue who was one of the ringleaders, they finally realized what they were doing was likely foolish.

I feel bad because the monk who has thus far been acting as the "leader" in combat situations was kind of frustrated. The thing is, this whole debacle led the paladin (who really could be the one taking charge in most cases) to actually take a leadership role near the end. He clued in to what was going on earlier than anyone else, and realized that if he'd just spoken up sooner they probably wouldn't have wasted an entire night beating up drunks.

I'm going to make it up to them with some insane heroics and derring do this week, but still, I feel a little bad.

[CyberTractor]

Now THAT'S roleplaying xp. Awesome.

He also has no concept of traps.

Some of the party members were carefully searching a door for traps. Well, Punpun thought they were dumb creatures and simply used the handle to open the door. It set off a razor wire trap that was waist high. Punpun, being a small creature, didn't even notice it as it whizzed overhead and severely injured the elf behind him.

[Darth Hobo]

Whenever I can get my friends together, I GM some Star Wars Saga Edition. They're too new to the system to attempt to min-max or 'beat Star Wars,' so I'll be enjoying it while it lasts.

[Zed Alpha]

D&D All the Way, buddy!

I play 4E, by the way. Have to say I've had the most fun with this edition than any other.

Please don't flamecrapstorm me for that. It's true. 4E is great, and I'm having fun both playing and DM-ing it.

[Telaril]

D&D All the Way, buddy!

I play 4E, by the way. Have to say I've had the most fun with this edition than any other.

Please don't flamecrapstorm me for that. It's true. 4E is great, and I'm having fun both playing and DM-ing it.

I don't mean to give the impression I think anyone who likes 4e is wrong. I just disagree with people who state that 4e is definitively better than any other edition for everyone.

For combat 4e is leaps and bounds superior to any other D&D system so far. Though I am curious... what kind of campaign are you running or playing in? I've found certain types of games are much better in 4e, certain games are better in 3.5, and some are better in 4e with a modified skill system.

[Cade Antilles]

Gah! 4th Ed discussion . . . elsewhere. Y'know what? I'm gonna go start that thread right now.

On a lighter note, tonight, I finally got to play in that BESM game I built that Gun Bunny for. God, that was fun! My character has a Dex of 49! teehee!

[Jillers]

My friend has been working on Lejendary Adventures and we're going to start playing soon, so I'm really excited. I'm going to be a kobold pirate. I was going to be a troll and bully any humans in the party to do my bidding or else I'd eat them, but that's a one joke pony...

Quick Start Rules and character sheets (in case anyone's interested)

[Telaril]

Gah! 4th Ed discussion . . . elsewhere. Y'know what? I'm gonna go start that thread right now.

On a lighter note, tonight, I finally got to play in that BESM game I built that Gun Bunny for. God, that was fun! My character has a Dex of 49! teehee!

Is this D20 BESM or D6? I haven't played either in a loooong time, but I liked them a lot. Balance was awful, but meh!

[Cade Antilles]

Is this D20 BESM or D6? I haven't played either in a loooong time, but I liked them a lot. Balance was awful, but meh!

This would be d20 BESM. And yes, the game system is totally unbalanced. But, that's what makes it hilariously awesome.

My friend built a character based on Deadpool from Marvel Comics. The guy virtually cannot die! He can regenerate from any wound, including being beheaded or even blown apart. Only complete incineration will stop him. Another friend has a Pet Monster Trainer character with an elephant sized Pug with a Strength of 66 and Damage Reduction 12/-. And, we're only level 5!

[Bob The Magic Camel]

For combat 4e is leaps and bounds superior to any other D&D system so far.

You might want to check out The Book Of Nine Swords. Adds lots of the encounter stuff to the Melee classes in 3.5, not as comprehensive as 4e's stuff, but if you want to hang on to the skills system it's as close as you can get.

[Joshua]

Me and two friends just finished a session of a call of Cthulhu game that was spliced with resident evil rules, I didn't use much of that just a base for a monsters and setting, but using my knowledge and fondness I was able to pull it off fairly well, with nothing at all prepared, I really enjoyed this, and I work best when improvising stuff because if I plan it out it usually gets wrecked, but if I am improvising the whole thing it just sort of flows because it doesn't really matter if the players take a one door over another because I don't have it planed one way or the other. They started out at an umbrella facility and had been taken prisoner and stuff had just started to go incredibly wrong, I was able to use the idea of the U.B.C.S to push things along and add a sense of urgency making it very fast paced and intense to have a group of highly trained individuals hunting you, along with the fear of all sorts of horrible things coming after you. They seemed to really enjoy it and I was able to throw in some references to the game, and small puzzles to an extent. I really enjoyed this, and I think I was able to freak them out as one of the players had very little prior knowledge into the umbrella era type monsters and things only having played RE4 and the other player lapping up all the resident evil material like a small child at a....I dunno maple syrup factory.

[Ian]

My current character for DND is my favorite. (3.5 system, mind you.)

Everyone was gearing up and cheesing characters by making half-orc barbarians, and a giant warforge, and halfelf rogues, and such, and basically tailoring their characters to be damage dealers.

So I made a kobold. He's a sorcerer. His name is Punpun. He has a kitten familiar.

We killed some assassins who were going to kill the city's magistrate, so we all got enchanted weapons. Punpun had a rod that cast magic missile as a free action once a day. He traded it for a gold-covered staff because it was shinier.

My GM laughed his ass off. I gained a level because of innocence.

I love this. When did people stop making characters that were just plain fun. (as long as they're not disruptive ) Right now we have a gnomeish barbarian in our cam. He's a grappling specialist. I'm thinking of giving him a delightful pseudonym, like "The ankle eater". The other Barbarian in the party (who went the damage route as a Goliath) is taking feats to eventually get "Throw ally"
Cause throwing a rock is cool, But throwing a gnome that's drunk, frothing a the motuth, and screaming incomprehensible Irish, well thats just intimidating.

[DrJonAngus]

I used to play D&D minis, but that is it really. I've always really wanted to play D&D using the books. Can anybody recommend a good place to start?

[CyberTractor]

I played a game of BESM.

I made a totally broken character that couldn't be hurt or killed unless the GM made an insanely powerful bad guy. (Legitimately, too. No special creation rules.)

Fun times.

[Cade Antilles]

I used to play D&D minis, but that is it really. I've always really wanted to play D&D using the books. Can anybody recommend a good place to start?

A good place to start, if your circle of friends isn't interested, is to inquire at your local hobby shop. Many times, they'll know of (or sometimes host) D&D games looking for players. This is a good way to be introduced to the game and play along with a varied group of players.

If your friends are interested, maybe the group of you could pool resources to purchase the core rulebooks: Player's Handbook (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) and Monster Manual (MM). The initial investment is approx. US$100. This way everyone can start learning the game together.

Ultimately, finding people that already have the books, and are interested in having you join, is the most economical and practical beginning. Seriously, just find your local geeks, they're likely to already be playing some form of RPG (D&D is the quickest to learn for newcomers, though).

[Ollie, don'tcha know!]

My friend recently got me back into Warhammer (40K), which isn't quite RPing, but oh well. For anyone else who plays and knows what the hell I'm talking about, I've got a Patrol Clash Tau Army, and I;m thinking about investing in some Blood Angels.

[Cade Antilles]

My friend recently got me back into Warhammer (40K), which isn't quite RPing, but oh well. For anyone else who plays and knows what the hell I'm talking about, I've got a Patrol Clash Tau Army, and I;m thinking about investing in some Blood Angels.

My friends still play 2nd Ed 40k, every once in a while.