Join Graham, Alex and Cam on this weeks TapTapConcede where Cam updates us on his FNM performance from last week and the changes he made to his deck. And Alex runs through his latest Highlander brew.
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TTC - Constructed Update
- TheHokeyPokey
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 18 Mar 2013, 16:49
- First Video: Unskippable pilot
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
I have a quick rules clarification on Undying + Persist. Both go on the stack, but only the top one resolves because the creature is no longer in the graveyard. So if you do this with a Redcap and Mikaeus, it would return as either a 2/2 or a 4/4. When you sacrifice it, the one that didn't resolve last time triggers. So it still works, but the Redcap would alternate between 2/2 and 4/4 instead of repeatedly entering as a 3/3.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update
Almost, but not quite. Here's a step-by-step description of what happens when you have a creature with both Persist and Undying:
- Your creature dies. Both Persist and Undying trigger, and as the controller of both of those effects, you get to choose how to stack them. Both players pass priority.
- Let's say you chose Persist, then Undying. Undying is the top effect on the stack and will resolve first. Your creature returns to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.
- Now, the other effect is still on the stack (Persist). This won't do anything, as the effect specifies, "When this creature dies," and the creature that you just returned to the battlefield is a new object and is seen by the game as a different creature from the one that just died.
- If your creature dies again, perhaps to a sac outlet, then the process will happen again. Now, if you want to create a loop, you will put Undying, then Persist on the stack; the creature will return with a -1/-1 counter and you start again at the top.
- Dusk_Shine
- Posts: 40
- Joined: 07 Dec 2012, 23:19
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update
For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/
It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/
It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.
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- Joined: 17 Nov 2013, 19:32
- First Video: Installation Anxiety 2010
- Location: Hanover, NH
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
Dusk_Shine wrote:For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/
It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.
Have you tried Genesis Hydra? It can help you grind out control's removal by presenting two large threats at once, especially since it's a "cast" trigger and not an "enters the battlefield" one.
- TheHokeyPokey
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 18 Mar 2013, 16:49
- First Video: Unskippable pilot
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
steric hindrance wrote:Almost, but not quite. Here's a step-by-step description of what happens when you have a creature with both Persist and Undying:
- Your creature dies. Both Persist and Undying trigger, and as the controller of both of those effects, you get to choose how to stack them. Both players pass priority.
- Let's say you chose Persist, then Undying. Undying is the top effect on the stack and will resolve first. Your creature returns to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.
- Now, the other effect is still on the stack (Persist). This won't do anything, as the effect specifies, "When this creature dies," and the creature that you just returned to the battlefield is a new object and is seen by the game as a different creature from the one that just died.
- If your creature dies again, perhaps to a sac outlet, then the process will happen again. Now, if you want to create a loop, you will put Undying, then Persist on the stack; the creature will return with a -1/-1 counter and you start again at the top.
That's what I said with more words.
- Dusk_Shine
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update
steric hindrance wrote:Dusk_Shine wrote:For Cam's perusal, my take on the Villainous Wealth deck.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/devotional-wealth/
It usually works pretty well, but I have issues against control a lot.
Have you tried Genesis Hydra? It can help you grind out control's removal by presenting two large threats at once, especially since it's a "cast" trigger and not an "enters the battlefield" one.
I might switch a couple in for the Hooded Hydra in the main and the Bow in the board.
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- First Video: Checkpoint - Blizzard of Cash
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
After reading those responses and coming to a couple different revelations, I think the important thing is: a creature with both undying and persist always comes back to life with some form of 1/1 counter on it (+ or -), and never at base power & toughness. In typical scenarios and a 0-cost sacrifice outlet, this still allows an infinite loop with it oscillating between undying or persist at each iteration.
- Snowman
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update
For some reason I just read Constructed Updates, skipping the TTC tag and was expecting something funny happened at the construction site next door (or pit).
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
I love the direction Alex's Highlander deck is taking. Fiend Hunter / Leonin Relic Warder / Oblivion Ring et al. is another loop that seems like it could fit in there.
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Re: TTC - Constructed Update
Great show, I listen every week on my drive home from work.
Nice combos in the highlander deck!
I don't think the Murderous Redcap/Kitchen Finks + Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit produces an infinite loop, though. LSV was also wrong about this one, I believe. Persist reads, "When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield... with a -1/-1 counter on it." So:
1. Cast Redcap, Anafenza's ability goes on the stack, gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter. He's a 3/3 and deals 3 damage to something.
2. Sac Redcap to a repeatable outlet.
3. Redcap returns, Persist sticks a -1/-1 counter on it. Anafenza gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter, so it is a 2/2 creature with a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter, so it has net 2/2 power/toughness and does 2 damage to something.
4. Sac Redcap again.
5. Redcap does not trigger its own Persist, because it had that -1/-1 counter on it, and therefore sits in the bin.
Unless -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters literally annihilate one another and disappear?
The reason this is an infinite combo with Melira is that Melira prevents your creatures from getting the -1/-1 counters at all, so Persist can keep triggering with each death.
Nice combos in the highlander deck!
I don't think the Murderous Redcap/Kitchen Finks + Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit produces an infinite loop, though. LSV was also wrong about this one, I believe. Persist reads, "When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield... with a -1/-1 counter on it." So:
1. Cast Redcap, Anafenza's ability goes on the stack, gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter. He's a 3/3 and deals 3 damage to something.
2. Sac Redcap to a repeatable outlet.
3. Redcap returns, Persist sticks a -1/-1 counter on it. Anafenza gives Redcap a +1/+1 counter, so it is a 2/2 creature with a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter, so it has net 2/2 power/toughness and does 2 damage to something.
4. Sac Redcap again.
5. Redcap does not trigger its own Persist, because it had that -1/-1 counter on it, and therefore sits in the bin.
Unless -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters literally annihilate one another and disappear?
The reason this is an infinite combo with Melira is that Melira prevents your creatures from getting the -1/-1 counters at all, so Persist can keep triggering with each death.
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
DestructoR wrote:Unless -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters literally annihilate one another and disappear?
That they do
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
There must always be a Stark in the Moonbase
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
I think the biggest threat to Alex's highlander deck is Alex:
Hmmm... I could swing for lethal this turn, or next turn I could combo off in a way that I never even thought of.
"I pass the turn"
- leoevans631
- Posts: 2
- Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:34
- First Video: It's Magic
Re: TTC - Constructed Update
So my friend plays an EDH version of Alexes deck, Reveillark triggers when it LEAVES the play, the combo is sac Karmic Guide sac win con sac Reveillark get win con and Karmic, Karmic gets Reveillark, rinse repeat.
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