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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Galadred » 02 Nov 2010, 10:40

This may be a stupid question, but can anyone explain mana accelaration especialy in context of black.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Matt » 02 Nov 2010, 10:43

ecocd wrote:
Matt wrote:So, I'm building a blue merfolk deck. I think I have a solid design, but I think it needs some mana accel. Any tips for adding that to a blue deck?

-m

Mana accel is pretty tough in blue and you can't really "splash" a mana accel color. I think you're pretty much stuck with Silver Myr and Everflowing Chalice. :?

Would it be possible to lower your mana curve so you have some useful early drops to keep up the pressure (or hold off pressure) until you get your bigger spells working?


Actually, my creatures are virtually all 1-4 drops, I just want to speed up the rate at which I can activate the deck mechanics. It may not actually nmeed the accel. so we'll see, I guess.

edit: lul, they actually /are/ all 1-4 drops.

-m
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby ecocd » 02 Nov 2010, 11:05

Okay, so this post may not be as relevant to your situation as I thought it was. I’ll post it anyway to see if it helps since it's already written.

To delve a little more into the theory behind my earlier questions, I think you could classify the need for mana acceleration as a tempo question. Right now, presumably, your deck is getting outraced right now. Your early game is weak, but your late game is strong.

If I recall correctly, the term is “fundamental turn.” Each metagame (i.e., play group) has a fundamental turn. If you don’t have something going by the FT, then you’re going to spend the rest of the game trying to catch up to your opponent’s board position. Back in Invasion Block, turn 2 was the FT, because 2-mana 2/2 creatures were ubiquitous. In the Vintage format, the Fundamental Turn is turn 1.

If you’re finding yourself a turn behind the fundamental turn in your play group more often than you’d prefer then the key is to either make your deck do something useful on the fundamental turn or postpone the fundamental turn. That’s a fundamental part of tempo, though not all-inclusive.

Mana acceleration “artificially” pushes your deck to be able to play something on the fundamental turn sooner than it would with normal land drops. Green is, obviously, the best at doing this. In a metagame with a fundamental turn 2, green drops an elf on turn 1 and now has 3 mana available for the fundamental turn while the opponent is stuck with only 2 mana options.

Blue tends to be much better at postponing the FT than making something happen on it. Bounce (return target permanent/creature to owner’s hand) is the simplest example of controlling the tempo of a game and postponing the FT. Your opponent spends turn 2 putting out a critter. You spend your turn 3 playing returning that creature to their hand. You’ve expended a resource to (a) prevent them from attacking for one turn (b) prevent them from using activated creature abilities (c) play an additional land. Countermagic is the other blue trick for controlling tempo.

The cost of controlling tempo in this manner is usually a card advantage deficit. You’ve expended a spell, while your opponent merely has to replay the card – or play a better one – on their next turn. You’re down one card in the early game banking on the fact that your late game is going to be so much more powerful than your opponent’s late game that you can make up that deficit. Occasionally you get cards like Repulse which are card advantage neutral. There’s a reason aggro-control was so viable while Repulse was legal.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Matt » 02 Nov 2010, 11:28

cool, thanks for the throry. I haven't actually playtested this deck build yet, so I'm not sure if it's being outpaced or not. It's very possible that it wont be. Lots of cheap creatures, lots of cheap or free buffs as the game progresses.

little bit of removal splashed in to keep things running.

-m
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby ecocd » 02 Nov 2010, 11:48

Matt wrote:cool, thanks for the throry. I haven't actually playtested this deck build yet, so I'm not sure if it's being outpaced or not. It's very possible that it wont be. Lots of cheap creatures, lots of cheap or free buffs as the game progresses.

little bit of removal splashed in to keep things running.

-m

If they're not already in your deck, strongly consider Mana Leak. It's in practically every aggro-control deck. It's there primarily to counter the Big Spell. Every time you have 2 mana open and at least 1 card in hand, your opponent has to act as though their key spell costs (2) more and that means your littler beaters get in another hit or two. Browsing through Gatherer, Unified Will is worth considering. It would need some testing, but it sounds like your deck will generally have more creatures than your opponents.

... or you'll find that you never need it, because if you have more creatures than your opponent, you're winning anyway. It feels like a good tempo card, though.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby MowDownJoe » 06 Nov 2010, 14:05

Am I the only one who prefers Rune Snag to Mana Leak? Yeah, Snag's harder to get your hands on, but it's potent later on.
Matt wrote:
ecocd wrote:
Matt wrote:So, I'm building a blue merfolk deck. I think I have a solid design, but I think it needs some mana accel. Any tips for adding that to a blue deck?

-m

Mana accel is pretty tough in blue and you can't really "splash" a mana accel color. I think you're pretty much stuck with Silver Myr and Everflowing Chalice. :?

Would it be possible to lower your mana curve so you have some useful early drops to keep up the pressure (or hold off pressure) until you get your bigger spells working?


Actually, my creatures are virtually all 1-4 drops, I just want to speed up the rate at which I can activate the deck mechanics. It may not actually nmeed the accel. so we'll see, I guess.

Hmm... makes me think of the old Lorwyn-block Merfolk decks that used Stonybrook Banneret with Merrow Reejerey to play out their hands faster. They also had a few Wizards (all of them Merfolk, of course) so they could draw a card off of Sage's Dousing.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Trymantha » 06 Nov 2010, 22:00

MowDownJoe wrote:Am I the only one who prefers Rune Snag to Mana Leak? Yeah, Snag's harder to get your hands on, but it's potent later on.


i think the biggest thing is that mana leak is legal type 2 at the moment and type 2 is what most people play, also manleak is better earlier on and the format has speed up quite a lot lately.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby saulfenky2470 » 06 Nov 2010, 22:12

i have a SUPER old deck....its like 3 or 4 maybe 5 decks behind. SOOO many banned cards
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Maerarde » 07 Nov 2010, 00:03

decks behind?
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby MowDownJoe » 07 Nov 2010, 09:29

Better than being dicks behind.
Sorry. Went a little streets ahead with that one.
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Trymantha wrote:
MowDownJoe wrote:Am I the only one who prefers Rune Snag to Mana Leak? Yeah, Snag's harder to get your hands on, but it's potent later on.


i think the biggest thing is that mana leak is legal type 2 at the moment and type 2 is what most people play, also manleak is better earlier on and the format has speed up quite a lot lately.

True. Though seeing as I haven't played in a constructed tournament in forever (occasional drafts, though), and my playgroup mostly just uses whatever the hell they have on hand, I would be more likely to play Rune Snag than Mana Leak. I mean, you just need one in the early turns and your later Snags are already better than Leak.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby RytelCSF » 07 Nov 2010, 13:54

Personally, if format isn't an issue and the "1U soft counter" niche needs to be filled, I'd go with Miscalculation. Early game it does its job, and late game when it would otherwise be useless it simply cycles away to a new card.

Rune Snag's not a bad card, mind you; it's great in multiples. But if you never draw your second one or draw your first one late it can come up short.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby NecroVale » 07 Nov 2010, 13:54

MowDownJoe wrote:Am I the only one who prefers Rune Snag to Mana Leak? Yeah, Snag's harder to get your hands on, but it's potent later on.


Because no one else will...

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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Dueling Chainsaws » 09 Nov 2010, 09:19

I stopped playing a long time ago. I stopped playing because the rules just got more and more confuddled. I had Green/white set that was basicly made for a combo of squirrel nest, earthcraft, and coat of arms. I could put an limitless number of 1/1 creatures in play and with seedborn muse I could untap them for a immediate meat shield.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 10:35

So with the recent video and my housemates getting somewhat deep into Magic, I figured I'd revive and revise my old Kamigawa Ninja deck. This does mean spending a fair bit of coin re-assembling and assembling it, but I think the result is pretty keen.

Code: Select all

Creatures:
4x Ornithopter
4x Dimir Infiltrator
4x Mistblade Shinobi
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Higure, the Still Wind
4x Throat Slitter
1x Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni

Spells:
4x Mana Leak
4x Last Gasp
4x Repeal
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
6x Island
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
7x Swamp
4x Waterveil Cavern
4x Dimir Aqueduct

Total: 60 cards, 22 land
This deck basically thrives on battlefield control, with cheap monsters to serve as cannon fodder and ninja bait, and the ultimate despair of using Higure in concert with Ink Eyes to get enemy dead on my side on a turn-ly basis with 5 damage to the opponent each time.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 15:50

Dead in the water here I see...

Ah well, I'm giving thought to improving the versatility of this deck. First and foremost, the Ornithopter is handy as a colourless 0-cost flying blocker for 2, but has zero capacity to attack (the reason most won't block it is because of this, though that's a rather obvious move, especially if the opponent is aware this is a ninja deck).

I'm thinking of adding in a set of Sigil of Distinction (X cost, add X tokens to Sigil, 1 token to equip, +1/+1 per token to equipped) to let them serve as some decent meatshields by turn 3 which is when creatures like Etched Champion come out and, in a proper deck, are otherwise unstoppable. This would give me 2/4 Ornithopters to cut them down, and would also be useful as a buff for other creatures like my more valuable ninjas.

I've also been looking into this whole "planeswalker" business and whilst Jace Beleren has his good notes for this deck (namely, big chunk of the opponent's deck goes into the graveyard...where Ink Eyes necromances from) he seems like a huge target to me and takes too long to heat up without benefitting my opponent at the same time. I might think about including Jace's Erasure to improve either way however, since I have a few ninjas that cause me to draw.

Instead of Jace, I think Liliana Vess might be a better option. She's 2 more cost than Jace's cheapest form, but has a useful ability whether or not I'm looking to get 8+ tokens, and is basically Ink Eyes on steroids when she gets her top ability off.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby RytelCSF » 15 Nov 2010, 16:19

Since you're playing the right colors for it, I'd replace Last Gasp with Agony Warp. It has the same creature-killing power and can also nullify another creature's attack.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby 8bitmaster » 15 Nov 2010, 16:38

I used to run a burn deck. 1/2 mana 1/4 sorceries 1/4 creatures. 100 cards.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 17:24

Just worked this out, I feel so geeky.

Turn 1:
  • Place an Island/Swamp
  • Summon an Ornithopter
(For those keeping track, this is actually what Graham does in Crapshot 72)
Opponent is at 20 Life

Turn 2:
  • Place an I/S (1 island is needed this turn)
  • Summon another Ornithopter.
  • Attack with Ornithopter, ninjutsu for Ninja of the Deep Hours.
  • Draw a card due to Ninja's effect.
Opponent is at 18 Life

Turn 3:
  • Place an I/S (1 swamp is needed this turn)
  • Summon Ornithopter.
  • Attack with Ornithopter, ninjutsu for Throat Slitter.
  • Destroy target non-black creature due to Throat's effect.
Opponent is at 16 Life

Turn 4:
  • Place an I/S (2 islands are needed this turn)
  • Summon Ornithopter.
  • Attack with Ornithopter, ninjutsu for Higure, The Still Wind.
  • Fetch Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni from deck due to Higure's effect.
Opponent is at 13 Life

Turn 5:
  • Place an I/S (2 swamps are needed this turn)
  • Summon Ornithopter.
  • Attack with Ornithopter, ninjutsu for Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni.
  • Summon target creature from opponent's graveyard to my battlefield due to Ink Eyes' effect.
Opponent is at 8 Life

Turn 6:
  • Place an I/S
  • Use Higure's effect for 4 mana to make Throat Slitter and Ink Eyes unblockable.
  • Attack with Ink Eyes and Throat Slitter.
  • Destroy target non-black creature due to Throat Slitter, summon target creature due to Ink Eyes.
Opponent is at 1 Life

Turn 7:
  • Place an I/S
  • Use Higure's effect for 2 mana to make Ink Eyes unblockable.
  • Attack with Ink Eyes.
  • Summon target creature due to Ink Eyes.
Opponent is at -4 Life

Poor Ornithopters must be summon sick as all hell...

Turn 7 I'd also summon Liliana Vess if she's included but that's only for long-term play.

EDIT: Corrected for lack of second combat phase, removing need for Minamo in this scenario.
Last edited by Lyinginbedmon on 15 Nov 2010, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Matt » 15 Nov 2010, 17:29

That was 5 ornithopters.

-m
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 17:37

Matt wrote:That was 5 ornithopters.

-m

Actually it's the same 2 Ornithopters, over and over again.

Ninjutsu means I return an unblocked attacker to my hand, pay a mana cost, and place a ninja in it's place, dealing damage to the opponent and generally netting me their effect as well.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby RytelCSF » 15 Nov 2010, 17:44

Lyinginbedmon wrote:Turn 6:
  • Place an I/S/M (1 island besides Minamo is needed this turn)
  • Use Higure's effect for 4 mana to make Throat Slitter and Ink Eyes unblockable.
  • Attack with Ink Eyes and Throat Slitter.
  • Destroy target non-black creature due to Throat Slitter, summon target creature due to Ink Eyes.
  • Use Minamo's effect for 1 mana and tap to untap Ink Eyes.
  • Attack with Ink Eyes (still unblockable)
Opponent is at -4 Life


How are you attacking twice in one combat phase?
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 17:48

Minamo, School at Water's Edge has the ability to untap a target Legendary permanent for 1 blue and tap, in this case the target is Ink Eyes.

As said, if I've messed the timing up there, it's 7 turns rather than 6. Been a while since I've played...
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby RytelCSF » 15 Nov 2010, 17:50

Yeah, that untaps it. How are you attacking again? You don't have anything to grant you an additional combat phase.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Nov 2010, 17:53

Hmm, then indeed this takes 7 turns (Using Higure on Ink Eyes to hit for 5 damage and rendering -4 Life again) and is less efficient for having 5 unused mana in turn 7.
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Re: Magic: The Gathering: Whatcha mean, there's no thread yet?

Postby Master Gunner » 15 Nov 2010, 17:54

What Rytel said. Even if Minamo functions as an instant you wouldn't be able to attack again, just have the creature available for blocking during your opponent's combat phase.
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