The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 25 Aug 2013, 11:52

Yea.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lurkon » 25 Aug 2013, 12:33

I think you definitely should contact Wizards. they don't want to sell damaged vaults.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 25 Aug 2013, 19:20

Did do. They said I can send it in for a replacement, which I'm going to do. I had to email them back since I'm not sure if they want me to send the whole thing back, or just the card. If it's just the card, that'd mean I'd have to open it, which means I'd likely just get the same card back, which means I can't just keep it sealed for Dolla Bills Ya'll. Plus, it says I need to send in a receipt, and I didn't get one. :( So emailed back about that issue.

Also, THEROS COME OUT SOONER PLS.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Jenelmo » 25 Aug 2013, 20:22

Now we have gotten a few hint for what is in Theros
Here are some things you can expect from Theros:

A 3/3 with three abilities that uses fate counters
Multiple cards with the word "nongorgon"
A high-profile cycle of legendary permanents that are not creatures or lands
A rare card with five words of rules text in which one of the words is "planeswalker"
An artifact creature that appears to be a big horse made out of wood
A 5/5 giant snake that can be cast for GG
A multicolor Minotaur lord
A card that could have been in Modern Masters
A giant that brings fire to humans
A creature with a saboteur ability (it has an effect if the creature deals combat damage to an opponent) which is one of the Power Nine


I am assuming that
A 3/3 with three abilities that uses fate counters

Is the Fates (Aisa, Clotho and Lachesis)
Multiple cards with the word "nongorgon"

Is Gorgons that can't petrify other gorgons
A high-profile cycle of legendary permanents that are not creatures or lands
An enchantment cycle of the Gods weapons like the spoiled Bident of Thassa
A card that could have been in Modern Masters

I really hope that it is Thoughtseize
A giant that brings fire to humans

Prometheus

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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby phlip » 25 Aug 2013, 20:47

Jenelmo wrote:
A creature with a saboteur ability (it has an effect if the creature deals combat damage to an opponent) which is one of the Power Nine

Well, it's never going to be a triple-Scroll Thief, and combat damage = Time Walk would be super busted, and none of the moxen make sense... but having combat damage be a discard-draw-seven isn't too out there, and it'd probably be possible to balance that. I mean, hell, they printed Whispering Madness and Reforge the Soul recently, which are elements of that.

Jenelmo wrote:
A giant that brings fire to humans

Prometheus

Well, they've said that it's all going to be "inspired by" Greek mythology, not simply copying it. So this card will presumably be Prometheus in the same way that, say, Civilised Scholar was Dr Jekyll... not by name, but with similar ideas.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Jenelmo » 25 Aug 2013, 20:56

phlip wrote:
Jenelmo wrote:
A creature with a saboteur ability (it has an effect if the creature deals combat damage to an opponent) which is one of the Power Nine

Well, it's never going to be a triple-Scroll Thief, and combat damage = Time Walk would be super busted, and none of the moxen make sense... but having combat damage be a discard-draw-seven isn't too out there, and it'd probably be possible to balance that. I mean, hell, they printed Whispering Madness and Reforge the Soul recently, which are elements of that.

I think you are correct as the moxen and lotus does not make sense as making mana in the combat phase is not very useful
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Volafortis » 25 Aug 2013, 21:43

I think Timetwister is a likely candidate for the P9 saboteur, but Ancestral Recall isn't out of the realm of feasibility. It would simply need a cost somewhere around Arcanis the Omnipotent/Griselbrand.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 25 Aug 2013, 23:58

A straight 3x Scroll Thief doesn't seem over powered:

Super Thief
6UUU
Whenever Super Thief deals combat damage to a player, draw 3 cards
3/9

But, having said that, I don't think "Draw 3 cards" is actually all that iconic. It's the 1 mana cost that makes it what it is. Time Twister sounds more reasonable. Time Walk would be amazing, but way too good. I mean, if you can't block it this turn, you probably still can't black it next turn, etc.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 27 Aug 2013, 00:05

So enchanted creatures are officially a thing now. The revealed one doesn't seem bad, but the special cost is way too high.

Also, I've built an enchantment-based deck
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 27 Aug 2013, 00:09

I knew those Ajani's Chosen would be a solid investment. I've even got some vintage original print Auramancers ^_^

*edit* also, Abhorrent Overlord is MMMMMM. I think I'm gonna be making myself a nice mono-black deck.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lemegeton » 27 Aug 2013, 06:11

Kapol wrote:So enchanted creatures are officially a thing now. The revealed one doesn't seem bad, but the special cost is way too high.

Also, I've built an enchantment-based deck


is it too high though? if you draw it early or mid game then you forget about the ability and its a 4/4 FS flier for 5. but as a late game topdeck 7 mana to make an existing creature Ridiculous which will leave behind a 4/4 FS flier if the creature dies is NOT unreasonable IMO.

the black demon they spoiled though is 100% bonkers good.

also with all these enchantment creatures there is going to be a sphere of safety deck in standard i think. also see Boros Reckoner shooting back up in value now as it will count as 3 devotion for red and white.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 27 Aug 2013, 09:12

Nightveil Specter for black/blue devotion, anyone? ^_^
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 27 Aug 2013, 11:21

Lemegeton wrote:is it too high though? if you draw it early or mid game then you forget about the ability and its a 4/4 FS flier for 5. but as a late game topdeck 7 mana to make an existing creature Ridiculous which will leave behind a 4/4 FS flier if the creature dies is NOT unreasonable IMO.

the black demon they spoiled though is 100% bonkers good.

also with all these enchantment creatures there is going to be a sphere of safety deck in standard i think. also see Boros Reckoner shooting back up in value now as it will count as 3 devotion for red and white.


If you're game goes that long, then you're likely either playing a control deck or another midrange deck. If you're playing a control deck, then they'll likely just kill or bounce the creature in response to you activating the ability, which means you spent seven mana to send something to the graveyard and now you don't have mana to recast the creature unless you're REALLY flooded out. It also means that you've missed a lot of creatures and are getting hit pretty heavy with land unless you're playing a ramp deck. The flooding issue also means that, if you're playing another midrange deck, they could pretty easily just swing over you if they're hitting their creatures instead of so much land. Of course, it does have the benefit that it looks like it might not be counterable if bestowed, though we'll have to wait to see.

Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty good card. A 4/4 flier with first strike is where the real value is though. Using seven mana should normally win you the game. This makes a major impact, but it's pretty easy to get around too if you Bestow it. The creature also has a major weakness in that it can easily be killed by things like Naturalize even when not enchanted to a creature.

My issue with the demon is that he's a 7 drop. The 1/1s he brings in with him are nice, but make it so he only works well in a mono-black deck. And those decks run a lot of removal like Doom Blade, or things like Corrupt over permanants. I'd honestly rather run Nightmare since it's a bigger butt that keeps growing in the air.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Devotion was a black-specific mechanic. It seems like a very... black ability to me.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby tamaness » 27 Aug 2013, 11:59

I dunno, how quick is Theros block going to be, and how quick will standard be after ISD-block rotates? If it's at all slower (and judging by the rares in the intro packs, at least block will be slower), then the Archon is a pretty good card.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Yaxley » 27 Aug 2013, 12:46

This one's for you, Lord Hosk. An article about building a deck around Bump in the Night.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lemegeton » 27 Aug 2013, 15:12

Kapol wrote:
Lemegeton wrote:is it too high though? if you draw it early or mid game then you forget about the ability and its a 4/4 FS flier for 5. but as a late game topdeck 7 mana to make an existing creature Ridiculous which will leave behind a 4/4 FS flier if the creature dies is NOT unreasonable IMO.

the black demon they spoiled though is 100% bonkers good.

also with all these enchantment creatures there is going to be a sphere of safety deck in standard i think. also see Boros Reckoner shooting back up in value now as it will count as 3 devotion for red and white.


If you're game goes that long, then you're likely either playing a control deck or another midrange deck. If you're playing a control deck, then they'll likely just kill or bounce the creature in response to you activating the ability, which means you spent seven mana to send something to the graveyard

not true. according to twitter conversation with Matt Tabak earlier if you pay the bestow cost and the target for the aura is bounced or made illegal in some way the spell will still resolve as the 4/4 FS Flier.
https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/372219786903556098

obviously 7 mana to get a 4/4 FS flier is pretty terrible but at least its not a total loss if the target is bounced/removed.

Kapol wrote:

I also wouldn't be surprised if Devotion was a black-specific mechanic. It seems like a very... black ability to me.


they have already spoiled a blue God creature with devotion so its seemingly hitting the whole color pie
Last edited by Lemegeton on 27 Aug 2013, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby phlip » 27 Aug 2013, 15:20

Kapol wrote:If you're game goes that long, then you're likely either playing a control deck or another midrange deck. If you're playing a control deck, then they'll likely just kill or bounce the creature in response to you activating the ability, which means you spent seven mana to send something to the graveyard and now you don't have mana to recast the creature unless you're REALLY flooded out.

For the record: we won't have the exact rules text until the FAQ comes out, but Tabak has clarified on twitter that there is a rule in place that if you cast something for its Bestow cost, and they kill/bounce your guy in response, it does still resolve, as a creature... this case just isn't spelled out in the reminder text. Basically you can't get 2-for-1ed in the normal Aura ways with this. I don't know how much that affects your evaluation...

Also, I don't know (or care) much about constructed, but in limited... Serra Angel is already a bomb, and First Strike > Vigilance most of the time (especially on high power creature), and even after that it has marginal upside. What's not to love?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 27 Aug 2013, 15:31

madAlric wrote:I dunno, how quick is Theros block going to be, and how quick will standard be after ISD-block rotates? If it's at all slower (and judging by the rares in the intro packs, at least block will be slower), then the Archon is a pretty good card.


I think there'll still be decent aggro decks. Losing Hellrider and Olivia are going to hurt a lot of them, but I'm confident Theros will have some decent aggro cards to mix in with some of the faster stuff from RTR. The quality of the fast decks will largely depend on how good Theros is for them, but they still have some good aggro to choose from.

Lemegeton wrote:not true. according to twitter conversation with some judges earlier if you pay the bestow cost and the target for the aura is bounced or made illegal in some way the spell will still resolve as the 4/4 FS Flier.

they have already spoiled a blue God creature with devotion so its seemingly hitting the whole color pie


That seems... kinda counter-intuitive to me. But I suppose it doesn't say target on it, so it wouldn't fizzle like a normal aura. It just seems really awkward given the way the reminder text is worded. I'm willing to bet there'll be a good amount of confusion about that at the prerelease. That does make it better even for it's bestowed cost. But looking again at how the reminded text is worded, you're still casting it for it's bestowed cost, so it seems like it'll still be counterable too. I still stand by what I originally said. It's good, but it's not great. It might see some competitive play on the local FNM level, since a 4/4 FS flier is really solid on it's own. But in limited... well, it'll just wreck your opponent.

As for the devotion thing, *shrug*. I had to reason to think otherwise other than that kind of 'color cult' idea seemed very black in nature to me. The blue god looks really nuts though. Being able to pay 2 to give any creature unblockable? Getting to scry every turn during your upkeep? Getting a 5/5 for 3 mana as long as you have 4 other blue symbols? All while being indestructible? That seems broken in my opinion.

phlip wrote:For the record: we won't have the exact rules text until the FAQ comes out, but Tabak has clarified on twitter that there is a rule in place that if you cast something for its Bestow cost, and they kill/bounce your guy in response, it does still resolve, as a creature... this case just isn't spelled out in the reminder text. Basically you can't get 2-for-1ed in the normal Aura ways with this. I don't know how much that affects your evaluation...

Also, I don't know (or care) much about constructed, but in limited... Serra Angel is already a bomb, and First Strike > Vigilance most of the time (especially on high power creature), and even after that it has marginal upside. What's not to love?


It makes it better, but I really dislike the way they worded the reminder. Plus it also makes it sound like you cast the card, which gets rid of an upside too. And yea, in limited it'll just win games by itself. The only way you can beat it is with a huge flier, and then you just use it as an aura instead.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lemegeton » 27 Aug 2013, 15:49

Kapol wrote:
As for the devotion thing, *shrug*. I had to reason to think otherwise other than that kind of 'color cult' idea seemed very black in nature to me. The blue god looks really nuts though. Being able to pay 2 to give any creature unblockable? Getting to scry every turn during your upkeep? Getting a 5/5 for 3 mana as long as you have 4 other blue symbols? All while being indestructible? That seems broken in my opinion.


i think the mtgsalvation spoiler has it wrong as there is another version of the card doing the rounds that says

{2}{U}
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
{1}{U}: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
Devotion 5 - If there are less than 5 blue mana symbols among permanents you control, Thassa is a noncreature enchantment and loses indestructible.

which is much more reasonable. the mtgsalvation version like you say is just busted
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Jenelmo » 27 Aug 2013, 15:53

Devotion is also the old mechanic redone as I this almost chroma
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 27 Aug 2013, 15:59

Lemegeton wrote:i think the mtgsalvation spoiler has it wrong as there is another version of the card doing the rounds that says

{2}{U}
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
{1}{U}: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
Devotion 5 - If there are less than 5 blue mana symbols among permanents you control, Thassa is a noncreature enchantment and loses indestructible.

which is much more reasonable. the mtgsalvation version like you say is just busted


Still seems pretty nuts. I think all the gods are going to be like that (I've heard that there's supposed to be a GG 5/5, though that's enough coincidence that it almost seems fake because of it). Unless there's more enchantment removal, getting rid of the enchantment before indestructible is in effect is still going to be difficult.

And how many mechanics did they say were coming in the new set? I thought it was only supposed to be three. Yet we have Heroic, Devotion, Bestow, and (maybe) scry. Did they just mean new mechanics or was I simply mistaken?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lemegeton » 27 Aug 2013, 16:07

Kapol wrote:
Lemegeton wrote:i think the mtgsalvation spoiler has it wrong as there is another version of the card doing the rounds that says

{2}{U}
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
{1}{U}: Target creature you control can't be blocked this turn.
Devotion 5 - If there are less than 5 blue mana symbols among permanents you control, Thassa is a noncreature enchantment and loses indestructible.

which is much more reasonable. the mtgsalvation version like you say is just busted


Still seems pretty nuts. I think all the gods are going to be like that (I've heard that there's supposed to be a GG 5/5, though that's enough coincidence that it almost seems fake because of it). Unless there's more enchantment removal, getting rid of the enchantment before indestructible is in effect is still going to be difficult.

And how many mechanics did they say were coming in the new set? I thought it was only supposed to be three. Yet we have Heroic, Devotion, Bestow, and (maybe) scry. Did they just mean new mechanics or was I simply mistaken?


the card is still nuts but at least with that text you can remove indes. by removing one of their other permanents to reduce the devotion.
as for mechanics they said 5 total. 2 returning. scry and devotion i.e. chroma. and then 3 new mechanics , monstrosity ,heroic and bestow.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 27 Aug 2013, 16:32

But then you remove the creature aspect as well, making it harder to actually kill.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 27 Aug 2013, 16:35

I'm underwhelmed so far, but I like devotion. I basically skipped the 6 years between the first Ravnica and this Ravnica, so I'm a little burned out on multi-coloured sets (and the expensive dual-land mana bases that go with them). I like the idea that if you want to play more colours, you have to work for it. Devotion rewards playing cards that simply cannot fit in a multi-coloured deck, and I like that.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby phlip » 27 Aug 2013, 17:14

M14 had a bit of a mono-colour theme to it as well... both directly, with Nightmare, Corrupt, Howl of the Night Pack... and indirectly, there are limited archetypes for both mono-W (a version of the Angelic Accord deck) and mono-U (tempo/fliers... WU without the W). I haven't seen a limited mono-R deck, but maybe it's there.
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