The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Volafortis » 13 Nov 2013, 03:01

Utilitarian wrote:Ultimately I have to wonder how something like this would have been handled at a similarly high profile paper magic tournament. Building needs to be evacuated or something to that affect. How would wotc handle things in that situation? If it would be handled similarily how it is handled in MTGO (tournament scrubbed, rescheduled, some minor compensation offered) then can we really be upset at how it's handled on MTGO? On the other hand, if it would be handled differently, then there is a legitimate complaint.


That's just it-- at a major event, they keep the records of the tournament thus far and can resume it from the most recent state, as long as the building wasn't evacuated for long enough that people actually left. Worst case scenario is that people who didn't finish their last match would need to replay it.

Sure, if there was something particularly major and the event had to be stopped altogether, that would be a trickier scenario but here's the thing: A paper event getting cancelled mid-event is incredibly rare; I've never actually heard of it happening. Likely because it would take something such that the tournament being cancelled would probably become the least of your concerns.

A Magic Online crash? That's not uncommon... far from it, and the fact that MTGO doesn't have a way to recover from this in a painless matter is pretty awful. This isn't some big build evacuation or natural disaster, this is shoddy programming and poor response, with no proper contingency plan.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Jenelmo » 13 Nov 2013, 03:54

I mostly just crack the boosters i win this is because i don't draft, the last time i drafted (NonCube) was at nationals '10 and only because you had to draft
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lord Hosk » 13 Nov 2013, 07:41

While I agree with most of what Mr Keibler said I think the reaction online has been a little ummm unbalanced.

While he accuses WOTC of glossing over the time people put in, he is just as guilty of glossing over the thousands of concurrent connections issue from two separate clients.

They should be able to reset from last save yes.

Was the compensation inadequate to him yes, but its more than they said in the TOS that he would get. He played a game for 10 hours, and when it crashed he was offered $50 plus a reset for the top of the field.

They didnt save the tournament in a state where he had won 7-0, but they did offer to put him into a narrower tournament with those who were on top. Would this be any different if WOTC had said "there was a server crash, we have saved the data we know where everyone is however because we know that everyone has already put 10+hours into this and it has taken us 3 more hours to recover everything we will resume the tournament next Saturday"

He cant make it to the make up event so he loses out on the opportunity to win the top prize. He is writing as though he would have won it and therefore they cost him the prize. He still had more games left to play and although he suspects he would have top 8ed there is no guarantee of that and even less a guarantee of him winning the whole event but his argument seems to be from the standpoint of "I should have won, you cost me the prize nothing other than the prize will be a valid compensation for my time"

That all said, the reaction to this online from people who either weren't in the event, didn't win enough to place highly in the event or who aren't skilled/experienced enough in the magic to even play has been like a youtube comment cesspool. Myself and others were getting berated and sworn at in NumotTheNummys chat room for suggesting that 1. its not that big of a deal its a GAME, 2. that this doesn't even have any impact on the people speaking, and 3. that its a massive complicated program and that crashes happen.

MTGO has its problems, more than it probably should I agree, and this isn't a get out of jail free card but, everyone know it. Everyone who played in that MOCS knows that MTGO has crashing problems, but because Brian Keibler wrote an article about it people are up in arms about how its the end of the world. Mr Keibler who oh so subtly pointed out that, he has a competing product that is stable.

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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 13 Nov 2013, 13:14

Duckay wrote:So, question. I know a lot of people (like Marshall Sutcliffe, and notably, Cameron in the first episode of this season of Friday Nights) are adamant that you should not just crack boosters when you get them, and should instead draft or at least play pack wars or something so you get some enjoyment out of that. But when you guys win packs, do you tend to do that, or do you just bust them open? I think I have only drafted with prize packs once ever...


The only time I really get prize packs as prizes are from drafts and from Pre-releases. When I get done with a draft, the place that gives out prize packs instead of credits normally didn't have the six+ needed to draft anyways, so the packs as a whole are less than what would be needed to draft again among the people there. Plus, everyone's tired by that point. I don't do it at home, since my Magic playing friend (of which I only have one friend I hang out with outside FNM who plays) lives a half-hour away. So I just open them. Cause... why not really?

It's pretty much the same reasoning for pre-releases. Though, in that case, it's because I normally go to the midnight one and pass out after. And after that, it's another case of not having enough to draft for everyone if I get eight people together. Unless I won a box or something, in which case I'd rather open them and sell off the money cards I got and don't need while they're high.

Plus, the big thing is just not wanting to wait. I love draft. But I just don't have a circle of Magic playing friends I can call together with the draft-signal on any real frequency.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 13 Nov 2013, 13:30

Lord Hosk wrote:MTGO has its problems, more than it probably should I agree, and this isn't a get out of jail free card but, everyone know it.


That's as far from a get out jail free card that it actually makes the point against them. People knowing they have a ton of glitches isn't an excuse. Nor is it if some people are fine with them. There are a lot of glitches that don't seem huge which they still haven't fixed. A good example is how the Bronzed Sable still appears as a Satyr. That isn't a huge problem... nor should it be that big of a problem to fix. Changing the type on one card seems like it should take less than ten minutes to fix to me. Adjusting one value on one card shouldn't be a difficult thing to do. But they still haven't done it.

You could say it's because they've been working on bigger glitches. Which, if true, is fine. But the fact that they're still having so many problems makes me wonder how many people they have working on this, and how skilled they are. Because if the problem is the number of people working on the project, then they should hire more. I guarantee they're making a good deal of money off MTGO, and they seem to want to make it a equal alternative to paper Magic. If so, they should be willing to put whatever resources they need into making a solid platform.

1. its not that big of a deal its a GAME


Once you throw money as prizes into the equation, it's no longer 'just a game.' There are people who survive off playing games like Magic for a living. To them, it's not 'just a game,' it's their livelihood. It's how they feed themselves and their family if applicable.

As I said before, if Wizards wants MTGO to be a full alternative to paper Magic, then they're going to have people trying to make money through tournaments like this. Likely people who already play offline as pros as well mostly. If glitches, crashes, and similar issues keep the tournaments from running cleanly, then it becomes an issue for those players.

I don't know if the guy who wrote the article is one of those people or not. But he did have a decent chance of the $25,000 prize at the point the program staled. It's not a guarantee he would have gotten it of course. But you have to admit that he was doing very good up until that point.


One thing I want to point out about the compensation. They cost Wizards nothing. Literally, giving out packs and the card on MTGO didn't cost Wizards a thing. If this was a real event, it would have cost them the cost of producing all of those physical packs and cards. But the digital items cost them nothing extra to produce, and since the infrastructure was there already, nothing to give them to the players.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 13 Nov 2013, 14:36

Kapol wrote:As I said before, if Wizards wants MTGO to be a full alternative to paper Magic, then they're going to have people trying to make money through tournaments like this. Likely people who already play offline as pros as well mostly. If glitches, crashes, and similar issues keep the tournaments from running cleanly, then it becomes an issue for those players.

I don't know if the guy who wrote the article is one of those people or not. But he did have a decent chance of the $25,000 prize at the point the program staled. It's not a guarantee he would have gotten it of course. But you have to admit that he was doing very good up until that point.
Maybe I have a skewed perspective because I'm a judge, or because I watch a lot of pro Magic, but are you saying you are not familiar with Brian Kibler? Or am I just reading that wrong? Interesting.

Anyway, I think the overall thrust of his post, that MTGO is not sufficiently reliable to run events that have meat-space prizes is correct.

I don't agree with the point he spends the bulk of the time on though, that the compensation was not sufficient. Reimbursement and a rescheduled event is about the only way they could do it. That it conflicted with his schedule is unfortunate. If a large paper event was disrupted, and moved to the next day, for example, I'm sure there would be people who would be disrupted as well, having booked flights, etc.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby phlip » 13 Nov 2013, 15:39

Lord Hosk wrote:He still had more games left to play and although he suspects he would have top 8ed there is no guarantee of that [...]

He reckons he was a lock for top 8, and while I certainly don't have the data to check if he was actually guaranteed or just super likely... but as a data point, note that after he was dropped, he auto-lost the next two rounds to go to 7-2. He had an opponent for round 8 (the one he was dropped in) but not for round 9. And if I'm running the numbers correctly, at that level, simply not having a round 9 opponent would be worse for your tiebreakers on average than having another opponent who is ended the round near the 8-1 level. And yet, despite losing the last two rounds plus that disadvantage, he was still in 7th place at the cut to top 8.

So, perhaps a lock, perhaps not, but definitely very likely to get in.

Duckay wrote:So, question. I know a lot of people (like Marshall Sutcliffe, and notably, Cameron in the first episode of this season of Friday Nights) are adamant that you should not just crack boosters when you get them, and should instead draft or at least play pack wars or something so you get some enjoyment out of that. But when you guys win packs, do you tend to do that, or do you just bust them open? I think I have only drafted with prize packs once ever...

I play magic approximately never outside the LGS, FNM and the like. So I don't really have an opportunity to do this. I'll often offer to packwars other people in the store, but they usually don't... either they've cracked their packs already, or they just want to go home, or something. Usually I'll sit on them for a while, pretending like I'm going to actually do something with them, and then crack them anyway, but I feel sad about it.

If I'm actually after some specific cards, I'll trade them in for store credit... but since I don't play constructed much, that doesn't happen too often.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 13 Nov 2013, 18:04

korvys wrote:Maybe I have a skewed perspective because I'm a judge, or because I watch a lot of pro Magic, but are you saying you are not familiar with Brian Kibler? Or am I just reading that wrong? Interesting.


It's entirely possible I've read stuff from him, or even seen him play, before and didn't pay attention to the name. Though I'm poor with those anyways, so even if I stared at it for an hour I likely wouldn't have remembered it. To be fair, I only started with Avacyn Restored, and I don't keep up much with pro Magic really. So that might be part of it too.

But no, I didn't know who he was off hand.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 13 Nov 2013, 19:04

Huh. Cool. I never really considered that someone who played Magic might not know who he was. I like finding things that make me question my assumptions.

Well, Kibler is fairly popular personality, as a player, writer, etc. Currently ranked 16th in the world (based on WotC's rankings). And more relevant to this situation, known for being very friendly. The anger in this article, and the associated tweet is uncharacteristic for him.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby guidance » 13 Nov 2013, 21:01

So I decided to sell some of my cards to card kingdom because my local store doesn't have a few cards that I am looking for. I sent them a week ago and haven't heard anything. I'm not worried about card kingdom doing something shady, I just don't trust Canada post cause it's Canada post. Does anyone know how long it usually takes for cards to get there? Seattle isn't even that far from here.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lord Hosk » 13 Nov 2013, 21:46

To continue with mine.

I am vaguely familiar with Brian Keibler, I know of him as "a nice guy" and "a very good magic player" nothing more, I have never read his article. I dont follow the pro tour, I dont care about what decks other people are playing unless they are across the table from me. I dont have delusions of ever making the pro tour or of day twoing a major event.

After a little more research I like the article even less. I got the impression from the article that the winner of the event he was playing in received the $25,000 and world championship invite along with the pro tour invite. He also uses the term "revenue" which most people mistake for profit but the terms are not the same. This was a qualifier for that event, so that prize wasnt even on the table it would be a pro tour invite, which he already has, and a entry into the MTGO Championship. The top 8 he is so adamant he would be in, and I agree it seems likely he would have been, would have had him playing for a chance to get into the top 16 end of year. His matches would have been against 1 other undefeated player and 16 other potentials with one loss.

The solution he wanted would be to start at round 7 with the current standings immediately which would have worked best for him. Wizards solution was "give the top players packs to compensate them for their time, and let the top players continue next week on Saturday which they felt was best for everyone involved. And for the inconvenience they offered all the players roughly $50 in prizes, it doesnt matter that those prizes are free to them, it still has a market value.

He spent all day and doesn't get the big prize, he cant come back next week for a few hours and is pissed that he will miss out on the chance at the big prize, I get it. MTGO should be more stable and they are not devoting the resources to make it more stable and that's irritating, but that's the product and we all know it. Its like people who drive over the speed limit and complain about getting tickets. The system is what it is, you know what the system is going in, Wizards is doing more than the TOS/EULA, that every player agrees to, says they will do.

I come back to him being pissed that he cant come back next week and taking the opportunity to promote SolForge.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 13 Nov 2013, 23:20

I'm mostly with you. I can see his perspective, and I would be pissed, too. However, yours is totally valid.

To use your "speeding ticket" analogy, a person could have a legitimate complaint that the speed limit in an area is too low, and needs to be raised. There are ways to petition and try to get it changed. It still doesn't mean you can speed.

Basically, I'm trying to get at is the difference between the system and the results. If I can stretch your "speeding" analogy a bit, it would be the difference between complaining about the ticket and complaining about the limit itself.
He has a legitimate complaint about the program and the set-up. Yes, it could and should be better. However, he does not have a legitimate complaint about the result, e.g. his compensation. He agreed to the TOS/EULA, so he gets what he gets, and he can't complain about that.

You need to fix the program. <- Totally valid
You should be saving the states. <- Totally valid
etc.
You should have given me different compensation. <- Not valid
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Lord Hosk » 14 Nov 2013, 09:11

I agree
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby MisterDee » 14 Nov 2013, 09:16

guidance wrote:So I decided to sell some of my cards to card kingdom because my local store doesn't have a few cards that I am looking for. I sent them a week ago and haven't heard anything. I'm not worried about card kingdom doing something shady, I just don't trust Canada post cause it's Canada post. Does anyone know how long it usually takes for cards to get there? Seattle isn't even that far from here.


Forget Canada Post. You trusted something to the US Postal Service. *shudder*

Count one day for your mail to get from the postal box to the post office, one day for post ofice to central mailing center, one day from central mailing to US Postal, then 6-8 weeks from US Postal to Card Kingdom.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Juliamon » 14 Nov 2013, 12:10

guidance wrote:So I decided to sell some of my cards to card kingdom because my local store doesn't have a few cards that I am looking for. I sent them a week ago and haven't heard anything. I'm not worried about card kingdom doing something shady, I just don't trust Canada post cause it's Canada post. Does anyone know how long it usually takes for cards to get there? Seattle isn't even that far from here.


When I sold cards to them, it took 8 days to get the "we've received your cards" email. And I live in the US. So.... yeah, have patience.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby guidance » 14 Nov 2013, 20:43

Juliamon wrote:When I sold cards to them, it took 8 days to get the "we've received your cards" email. And I live in the US. So.... yeah, have patience.


Yup, got the email today. Now I'm stuck deciding between making my standard deck
better in time for the GP, or try to build a modern deck.

MisterDee wrote:Forget Canada Post. You trusted something to the US Postal Service. *shudder*

Count one day for your mail to get from the postal box to the post office, one day for post ofice to central mailing center, one day from central mailing to US Postal, then 6-8 weeks from US Postal to Card Kingdom.


Have more faith in your mailing system, they didn't seem to screw up this time.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Dubious_wolf » 15 Nov 2013, 09:48

I won my first draft!!!
Yes!
Woot!
Awesome!
^( " )^
winner!
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Del » 16 Nov 2013, 18:04

top 8d a gpt trial today. not bad. Stormbreath Dragons carried me all day. :3
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby VectorZero » 17 Nov 2013, 04:46

So, having finally given in to the magic bug, I bought a box of Theros recently. Played my first draft two weeks ago, went 3-0. Played my second today, 2-1. Good times!

I've been having a bit of fun in Standard with a Boros aggro deck and I'm looking into making a second deck. Here's what I have come up with so far; I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 18 Nov 2013, 16:04

So, if Pharika's Mender was the same body with an ETB effect that read "Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a creature card. Reveal that card and put it in to your hand, shuffle etc" do you think it would be Standard playable? Or is the 4/3 body for 5 just too little to justify running this card, even if it guaranteed you a creature draw?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 18 Nov 2013, 16:07

Not really. Honestly, I think it'd be worse like that. Even if it does guarantee you a creature draw, wouldn't you rather just draw the better creature you're hoping to draw with it? I mean, it's not like it's actually a tutor that way, so you could still hit one of your early game creatures. At least the graveyard thing can interact with stuff like dredge, or return a killed creature to you.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 22 Nov 2013, 21:51

3/1 at FNM tonight with a revision of my Simic deck including Bident of Thassa. Not a good choice. Sided out in most matchups, never found a good place to resolve it.

Gonna try a more focused mono-green next week
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby MrPayneTrayne » 23 Nov 2013, 14:08

Just played in my second ever LGS event and got third place!

Not bad from dead last in a draft to third in a sealed! Wootwoot, felt really good although it's a lot of luck of the draw.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Duckay » 23 Nov 2013, 19:08

Just was reminded of something that happened to me at my last draft which made me very sad.

Already deep into black devotion, open pack 3, which contains Abhorrent Overlord, Keepsake Gorgon, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Become very sad.

Has anyone else experienced something like that, where you know that while there may be a "best card", there's multiple very powerful cards for you that you just know aren't possibly going to table, even under the best of circumstances?

(Also, out of curiosity, what's your pick in that pack?)
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 23 Nov 2013, 19:16

That's a bad situation since it sends signals that black is open even if it isn't. Thankfully, at pack 3, that shouldn't matter as much. Pack 2 or 1, on the other hand, could lead to trouble down the line.

My personally pick would depend on how much black mana symbols in permanents you have already. The pick is really between the Overlord and Gary I feel. If you have a ton of devotion adding items, Gary's the best choice since he can just win you the game. Hell, he might even be the best choice anyways.

But Overlord is a bomb too who floods the field with creatures. The fact he costs so much isn't too bad in limited either. It might also depend on what you're trying to do with the deck. But I feel Gary is the best pick overall.

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