The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

[WickedBoy6]

PC via steam.\

Look for wickedevil on there. I'm up for some DotP. It's one of the only games I could play without my laptop crashing. -_-

[Prospero101]

I'm Prospero101 on Steam, and I'd be down for some DotP too, given enough notice.

So another perk I've discovered in Magic Online is that money cards are substantially cheaper in their digital forms. As a result, building a budget-ish Modern deck is finally within the cards. What do you guys think of blue-red counterburn? Is it a viable archetype?

Also, while I realize the fetch lands are better because they can fetch certain duals, I was wondering if cards like Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse are a reasonable budget substitute.

[Volafortis]

Only if you're using them primarily for the shuffle or for the landfall trigger. If you want mana fixing and can't afford the fetches, substitute them with real dual lands (and no, not guildgates, good ones).

[Prospero101]

So I'm guessing Steam Vents and Sulfur Falls, then. And I suppose given that you didn't summarily dismiss the idea, counterburn is, in fact, a viable archetype.

[Volafortis]

Yeah, UR counterburn is viable thanks to Delver/Young Pyromancer. You'll want Snapcasters too. Beyond that, your typical Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak package is a good start, combined with good value tempo plays, like Vapor Snag and Gitaxian Probe. Serum Visions to set up Delver flips, possibly Magma Jet too.

Then you'll want to load up the top end of your curve with ways to reload on gas or push through the last bits of damage, typically Vendilion Clique, Chandra, Pyromaster, or Jace, Architect of Thought would be solid choices here. I'd personally go for Vendilion Clique, because it's basically exactly what you want to be doing, dropping an aggressive flyer and either controlling your opponents hand or improving your own. My second choice would be Chandra.

Getting damage in your lands isn't a bad plan either, and 2-3 Mutavaults can go a long way. You don't want to go too heavy on these though, especially if you don't have the fetchland manabase.

EDIT: And Spell Snare is typically fantastic in the main, since everything good in Modern costs 2 mana, and Spell Pierce in the sideboard for creature light decks.

In the end, I'd run something like this:
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Young Pyromancer
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Mana Leak
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Vapor Snag
4x Serum Visions
3x Spell Snare
2x Magma Jet
1x Spell Pierce
1x Burst Lightning

1x Chandra, Pyromaster

2x Mutavault
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Steam Vents
2x Misty Rainforest
5x Island
1x Mountain
2x Tectonic Edge

Again, that's what I'd run, feel free to substitute/adjust as you would for budget reasons.

[Duckay]

Haven't played modern in months... Go to a modern PTQ. What could possibly go wrong?

[Prospero101]

The only things I feel I object to for budget reasons are the Vendilion Cliques and fetch lands. I guess I'll just put in more basics and 4x Sulfur Falls in instead of the fetches? Not sure what to replace the Clique with though.

[steric hindrance]

The only things I feel I object to for budget reasons are the Vendilion Cliques and fetch lands. I guess I'll just put in more basics and 4x Sulfur Falls in instead of the fetches? Not sure what to replace the Clique with though.

I think some builds of UR Delver run Keranos in the board; maybe you could experiment with running him main.

[Prospero101]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm a bit concerned about the lack of hard counters. Will this hold up well if the game goes long? Or do I just not know how Modern works?

[Volafortis]

Spell Snare is a hard counter, and the only deck that can go long enough for Mana Leak to not be a hard counter most of the time is UWR and Grixis control.

Also, Remand is a good card for consideration, I just didn't have it on my mind when I posted the original list.

A revised list (with budget changes made):
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Young Pyromancer
2x Grim Lavamancer

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
2x Remand
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Vapor Snag
4x Serum Visions
2x Spell Snare
2x Magma Jet
1x Spell Pierce
1x Burst Lightning

1x Chandra, Pyromaster

2x Mutavault
4x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Shivan Reef
6x Island
2x Mountain
2x Tectonic Edge

You should be winning most games fast enough that it won't be an issue. You will want 2-3 Counterflux in the sideboard though, for the Storm and UWR/Grixis matchups.

My sideboard for it would look something like this:
2x Counterflux (UWR, Storm)
1x Spellskite (Bogles, Twin)
2x Relic of Progenitus (Pod, Living End, misc.)
1x Threads of Disloyalty (Anything running small creatures)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster (Anything midrangy)
1x Torpor Orb (Pod, Twin)
1x Sword of Feast and Famine (Pod, Jund)
1x Combust (Pod, Kiki Twin, Mirror)
2x Blood Moon (UWR, Pod, Jund, anything running nonbasics)
1x Shatterstorm (Affinity)
1x Vandalblast (Affinity)
1x Magma Spray (Pod)

[Prospero101]

What's your take on Memory Lapse? I realize that Remand's cantrip effect is important, but otherwise Memory Lapse seems just as good.

[ZePancakes]

Lapse is not Modern playable as it has not been printed in a modern boarder set.

[Prospero101]

It hasn't? Huh. Must've been a supplemental product. Carry on.

[Volafortis]

Yeah, Memory Lapse would be awesome if it were legal, simply because it's a more guaranteed tempo play.

[Prospero101]

Cool! Thanks for the help, Volafortis. Since I'm new to Modern I'm just gonna blatantly rip this list off and then tinker with it when I feel more comfortable.

So I'm guessing the win conditions are Delver, Pyromancer, and lots of direct damage straight to the dome?

[Volafortis]

For the most part, yes. Delver beats are your main damage source, but Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster, and Grim Lavamancer all work too, so don't underestimate them.

I play UWR, and I've been able to close out quite a few games from a burst of 8 damage in the form of Bolt, Snapcast Bolt, swing with Snapcaster.

You'll want to use your Bolts smartly. You'll be bolting the dome pretty frequently, but don't do that turn 1, ever (unless your hand has 4 bolts)

Your priorities should be:
1. Stick an unanswered threat.
2. Keep the path clear for that threat to hit in for as much damage as possible.
3. Once your opponent is at 10 or lower, throw down the burn to seal the deal.

My personal advice:
1. Use the right removal for the job. If your opponent sticks something low toughness, use your burn. If your opponent sticks something stonger, use your bounce/Chandra ping.

2. Play to your outs. Keep note of what spells you've used. You'll want to know what your path to victory is at all stages of the game. When you look at your opening hand, you'll want to see a feasible way to bring your opponent from 20 to 0. Obviously your opponent will do what they can to stop you, but that's when you improvise. If you're improvising from the start, you're not going to have a good time.

3. Don't hold Snapcaster too long. A lot of players make this mistake. If you aren't applying any pressure to the opponent, feel free to use Snapcaster to apply some. If you know you aren't going to have relevant Snapcaster action for a while, don't be afraid to flash him in just to have a threat.

4. Likewise, if you've been digging and haven't seen anything good, don't be afraid to Snapcast your cantrips. Snapcasting a Gitaxian Probe or Serum Visions might feel like you aren't playing it to good effect, but if the timing is right, these plays can be critical.

5. Don't blow your cantrips when you don't need them. If your hand is good, and you already know what your opponent has, don't feel bad holding on to cards like Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe. Later in the game, you may find yourself needing a specific card, and that's when you'll really want to have these cards.

5a. With regards to cantrips, don't hold them too long. Once your hand is out of gas, use them to reload. Snapcaster them to reload.

If you feel like the deck is ever doing poorly, watch your own play patterns. You'll often find that it isn't because of the deck, it's often because you didn't mulligan properly, or misappropriated a Snapcaster Mage/cantrip.

[Prospero101]

Now, I'm guessing I should hold my threats back until I have spare mana and ways to keep it around, right? I shouldn't, say, slam Chandra turn four and pass, leaving my pants down?

[Volafortis]

Play it by feel. If the board is clear and your opponent is tapped out (Say they board wiped), by all means, slam the Chandra down. Don't hold threats if you aren't applying pressure. The only time you want to hold threats is when you're avoiding a board wipe. That said, if you're behind on the board state, use removal to catch up, with a few more expendable threats to establish yourself.

When you should play what is something you'll learn to judge for yourself as you get experience with the deck.

[Kapol]

So, quick question to the people here since I'm kind of arguing about it on Reddit. Let's say you're in Magical Christmasland and you go turn 1 forest-elf, turn 2 triple Burning-Tree, Nykthos, Chord of Calling for 7. What would you rather grab with Chord? Giant Adephage of Sylvan Primordial?

[Volafortis]

Out of those two? Generally Primordial.

Turn two Stone Rain + Mana Ramp and a big body is fantastic. Either one can be removed. Primordial still gives you advantage.

However, against an opponent that I know isn't in a color to remove Adephage easily, Adephage can be better.

Tutoring is good because you can get whatever is better at the time.

[Kapol]

I lean more towards Adephage. In that situation, you're going to have 9 mana anyways (assuming no removal) even if you don't play another land. And unless they're on the play and go turn 3 downfall, or are playing Doom Blade turn 2, Adephage is going to be hard for them to answer. But turn 3 you're going to have dealt a solid amount of damage and have gotten another adephage if they didn't manage to get rid of it.

[Volafortis]

But you run a greater risk of getting blown out by removal/board wipes.

Both win you the game on a similar clock. Primordial just gives you a better backup plan.

[Kapol]

I disagree. A single spot removal spell can deal with primordial at any point, while hitting once with Adephage kind of gets rid of that option so early in the game. They likely won't be able to afford two removal spells in a row before they're dead. Plus, trample makes dealing with Adephage a lot harder I feel. Board wipe, of course, just wrecks you in this situation no matter what you play, since it basically gets rid of 7 mana without the Chord summoned creature and leaves you without much of a hand.

For the record, while I am arguing my point, I am actually curious to understand the mindset. For me, it just doesn't really feel like a contest between the two outside of playing against a control matchup. But that might be because I'm a bad player. So I'm less trying to say 'you're wrong' and more trying to relate how I see the situation.

[Volafortis]

If your opponent has spot removal though, and most opponents will, the Adephage won't hit once, though.

Also, even if you do hit once, the additional Adephage is basically win-more. You'd have lethal without it. If they didn't have the removal the first turn, it's unlikely they'll have it the second turn.

Primordial provides the same clock (2-turn):
1 Elf, 2 Emissary, and 1 Adephage = 12 power
1 Elf, 2 Emissary, and 1 Primordial = 11 power

That's a two-turn clock. Adephage doesn't speed up until it's connected once, so it's still a two-turn clock.

Sure, the Primordial can be chump blocked, but you'll have stone rained the opponent, weakening their ability to put things in front of it, and getting their mana base out of board wipe range.

Adephage allows the mana base of the opponent to stay in board wipe + 3 mana removal range, which is a huge weakness.

Adephage essentially does nothing better, because in either situation, if the opponent has removal, they'll use it the turn the creature drops. Adephage being good against spot removal after it connects once is irrelevant, because if it connected once, they don't have the spot removal.

So basically, Adephage is almost never better. The only time it arguably is better is when your opponent has a bunch of chump blockers and no removal, and it's unlikely that they will on turn 2.

Both cards are essentially the same if your opponent has no removal, so you have to think about which is better when they do have the removal. Primordial is better in that case every time.

[Prospero101]

One last question: should I pick and choose what I counter or should I just counter everything I can?