The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Firbozz » 14 Jan 2014, 12:13

Putting in my two cents on the enchantment removal discussion...
Going back to M14, R&D made it pretty clear removal wasn't gonna be strong coming into Theros. That's just the way it is. But it's not like they've suddenly forgotten how to balance removal; It's intentionally weak.

Theros block has a lot of "Assemble Voltron" to it (particularly in limited), so to print "historically good" removal would be shooting their own set design in the foot. How to you fight your opponent's monsters? Get your own, or suit up a dude so he's a match for that beast.

Constructed's (esp. competitive) is another story. There'll be plenty more answers in constructed, but that's fine, it's a whole other world over there. For limited, though, removal's gotta be a bit on the weak side to make the environment play as intended.

Afterword on FIA: If it was at instant speed, it'd have to be uncommon most likely (compare it to Krosan's Grip, which does not exile, but was split second.)
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 14 Jan 2014, 12:35

I'd be fine if Fade was uncommon and instant, personally. Though I suppose that'd get rid of it's main purpose, which seems to be a method of being able to get rid of gods in limited. At common, it's not too much to expect to get one. At uncommon, especially with only 2-3 packs of Theros, that chance drops pretty quick.

Of course, for all we know, there could be something similar in BotG.

As for removal being weak... that's true in the Theros block, especially in limited. But in constructed, removal is pretty strong right now. There are enough sac and destroy effects to make keeping a creature on the field hard. Not to mention board wipe (though that's mostly one card, unless Merciless Eviction gains traction).
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Prospero101 » 14 Jan 2014, 17:02

Soooo...Supreme Verdict is down to five bucks. Is Esper Control finally within my grasp?

No, probably not.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 14 Jan 2014, 17:06

Not unless you have the Sphinx's Revelation to go with it. Which seems to still be over $20.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Prospero101 » 14 Jan 2014, 18:11

*sigh* I guess it's kind of dumb to try and build a budget version. I've always liked Esper control as an archetype, but it's an expensive one.

Maybe I'll just tinker with my devotion deck.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 14 Jan 2014, 18:45

If you like the colours, try Esper humans maybe?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Prospero101 » 14 Jan 2014, 19:11

...how do you play blue without counterspells?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 14 Jan 2014, 19:41

Well, the nice thing about counterspells is that your opponent can't resolve his spells.
How can he resolve his spells if he's dead?
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Prospero101 » 14 Jan 2014, 20:19

Touche.

I'll tinker with a few builds of my own. Esper tokens, perhaps.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Firbozz » 14 Jan 2014, 20:26

FIA kinda wants to be at common, though, since green is tops in enchantment removal. It just works out strange in a block where sometimes enchantment removal (where green it top) = creature removal (where green is bottom)
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 15 Jan 2014, 21:28

Image
Well there you go, Del. Instant speed, 2 mana, (effectively) exiles. It's uncommon, but we can't have everything.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Jan 2014, 04:01

Theoretically, you could have Xenegos the Planeswalker and Xenegos the God on the battlefield at the same time, which is weird.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 16 Jan 2014, 05:23

Not just theoretically, pretty easily actually, since they're a 4 and 5 drop respectively. It feels very awkward to me that they're in sets so close together. I understand there's a story-reason that makes sense. But having the change happen between a single set just seems... off to me.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Duckay » 16 Jan 2014, 06:20

I wish for flavour reasons that the legendary rule applied as though the different Xenagoses (Xenagese? Xenagi?) were the same, but I know there's reasons why that wouldn't work.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Del » 16 Jan 2014, 07:00

Unravel does exactly what I was looking for a card to do.

Most of all the cards spoiled from the 16th on mtgsalvation onward are super spicy. Thassa's Rebuff could become a premiere counterspell in the format after dissolve.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 16 Jan 2014, 13:29

Del wrote:Unravel does exactly what I was looking for a card to do.

Most of all the cards spoiled from the 16th on mtgsalvation onward are super spicy. Thassa's Rebuff could become a premiere counterspell in the format after dissolve.

I really don't see Thassa's Rebuff as being a thing. Early in the game you want a counter that you can use without anything on board, and if you've got nothing on board Thassa's Rebuff is useless. Conversely, late in the game you're much more likely to have spare mana so you can likely afford the extra mana for Dissolve or Cancel which will guarentee a counter.

Unraveller looks interesting. I wonder if we'll see a blue/black deck running Whispering Madness trying to draw their opponents to death. Sadly the most important draw spell in the format is still Sphinx's and the lifegain from that means that you're always going to be able to use your revelation. Plus the other major source of card advantages are Jace, which isn't strictly card draw, and Underworld Connections, which is in a deck running a plethora of kill spells.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Duckay » 16 Jan 2014, 13:54

I don't know; I like the card quite a bit, and I think the fact that it undoes the lifegain from Sphinx's Rev is more relevant than you're giving it credit for, but you are right that it's easy to remove. The Underworld Connections decks have kill spells, but let's not forget that the Sphinx's Rev decks have D-Sphere and Supreme Verdict.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 16 Jan 2014, 13:55

I think Thassa's Rebuff will be good as either a main card or a sideboard card for mono-blue. Mono-blue will normally have the early devotion, and enough late-game devotion to make it hard to pay for.

Karametra... I would much rather see her as a 7/6 instead of a 6/7. There isn't much point (at least standard-wise) for that much toughness on something with indestructible. The ability... I'd much rather that ability be on a four-drop. Having it happen turn five is just kind of bleh. It thins the deck and makes you able to play a bunch, but that doesn't seem... great.

As for the Unraveler... that seems pretty good. Especially with something that forces your opponent to draw. It seems like it'd be great in the Grixis EDH deck.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Utilitarian » 16 Jan 2014, 14:11

Yea there are certainly some Nekusar the Mindrazer Commander decks that are salivating over the Unraveller but I'm just not certain it's quite bold enough for Standard.

I guess with the counter spell I just feel like it's going to end up like spell rupture: the risk of having it in your hand when you don't have a board outweighs the benefit of it being cheaper than cancel and less specific than negate and essence scatter
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby korvys » 16 Jan 2014, 14:11

Oh yes, it's going straight into my Nekusar deck. As for countering Revelation? Maybe in an aggroish deck, where the life is more important (Rakdos?). For Dimir, Notion Thief is a pretty good way to mess that up, and combos with Whispering Madness even better (assuming you have a way to not deck yourself).
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Jenelmo » 16 Jan 2014, 14:35

Duckay wrote:I wish for flavour reasons that the legendary rule applied as though the different Xenagoses (Xenagese? Xenagi?) were the same, but I know there's reasons why that wouldn't work.

This is also not a new thing
Venser, the Sojourner & Venser, Shaper Savant
Karn Liberated & Karn, Silver Golem
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker & Nicol Bolas
The only new thing is that they are both in standard at the same time
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Kapol » 16 Jan 2014, 14:38

To me, it's not even that they're in standard at the same time. It's that they come out right after the other that throws it off. It makes me wonder if Jer might have been on to something with the 'overall legend' rule idea being a thing that'll happen, which make it much less awkward (though not taking effect until M15).

Fun fact: I originally misspelled Jer as Jerk. As I did while making this sentence.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby Duckay » 16 Jan 2014, 14:47

Jenelmo wrote:This is also not a new thing
Venser, the Sojourner & Venser, Shaper Savant
Karn Liberated & Karn, Silver Golem
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker & Nicol Bolas
The only new thing is that they are both in standard at the same time


I know it's not new, but that doesn't change that I wish it were different for flavour.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 16 Jan 2014, 14:50

Jenelmo wrote:
Duckay wrote:I wish for flavour reasons that the legendary rule applied as though the different Xenagoses (Xenagese? Xenagi?) were the same, but I know there's reasons why that wouldn't work.
This is also not a new thing
Venser, the Sojourner & Venser, Shaper Savant
Karn Liberated & Karn, Silver Golem
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker & Nicol Bolas
The only new thing is that they are both in standard at the same time
That's what I was referring to.
The Vensers were in Future Sight and Scars.
The Karns were in Urza's Saga and New Phyrexia.
The Nicol Bolases were in Legends and Conflux.
You'd never end up with both the creature and the planeswalker in the same draft, whereas now you can.
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Re: The General Magic: The Gathering Thread

Postby phlip » 16 Jan 2014, 15:42

Well, it doesn't need to be a Planeswalker and a Legend for the flavour mismatch to happen, just having two different Legends does it too. You could have both Mikaeus's in a Dark Ascension draft, and they wouldn't Legend Rule each other.
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