Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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SilPho
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 22 Mar 2012, 03:21

gcninja wrote:I just wanna ask a stupid simple question, but still. Lets say I have two Jace Erasures out and I play Divination allowing me to draw two cards
1) do they have to discard twice as much since I have two out?'
2) is it "per card I draw" or "per instance of drawing"?
Thanks!
theDreamer wrote:You draw two cards (triggers can't interrupt a spell resolving)
Four triggers are now available for you to put on the stack, each can target a different opponent.
Yup.

As for the state-based-actions involved in this scenario I think everyone pretty much understands the you will lose the game if you resolve a Brainstorm with only 2 cards in your library and that you would not lose the game if a card said "Lose 3 life. Gain 3 life" while on 3 or less life.

The reasoning there is, as previously mentioned, because of the different wording of the state-based-actions. SBAs don't watch the game, they just periodically check things out to make sure everything is as it should be. The card draw is sort of an exception, but losing the game still happens later.

There is something in Magic that does watch the game very closely, these are called State-Triggers. Emperor Crocodile is a prime example of this. Beast Within, for example, could kill your only other creature and even though you would control 2 creatures when SBA's are checked, the state-trigger that the Crocodile has means you'll have to sacrifice your croc.

And, as Dreamer said, Oracle of Mul Daya's card-revealing ability is not a state-based-action (or a state-trigger), it is simply an ability that happens to work at (almost) all times.

(I've had to type this fairly quickly, so apologies if I've missed any other points in previous posts, feel free to point them out)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Volafortis » 22 Mar 2012, 06:03

SilPho wrote:snip

Yeah, I made a second post, and tried to make it more accurate, rather than trying to be easy to understand, and I clarified the Oracle of Mul Daya's ability is what known as a static ability.

Another instance of static abilities causing shenanigans is Elesh Norn. If you control an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and then play another, creatures your opponents control briefly get an additional -2/-2, and creatures you control briefly get an additional +2/+2 before state-based actions are checked and remove both Elesh Norns because of the legend rule.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Robert Merlow » 23 Mar 2012, 11:45

What falls under the realm of Unsportsmanlike Conduct? What constitutes a warning, what constitutes a game loss, what constitutes a match loss? I ask this because one of my opponents recently was trash-talking throughout the entire match (ex: "Oh, really? A fucking net-decker? Why don't you grow some balls and build your own fucking deck?" This was while he was winning.) I usually don't hear this kind of conduct during a tournament match and while I won the round, he was still being a bit of a snide ass. I don't know if it is within my right to call him on this after I won the round.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 23 Mar 2012, 11:53

I would have thought some level of civility and good sportsmanship would be taken as read by everyone.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Robert Merlow » 23 Mar 2012, 13:05

Almost everyone that I have played with is really civil and rather quite awesome, but it would be really good to know in the event that I encounter another player similar to this one
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 23 Mar 2012, 15:13

Matters of unsporting conduct are a matter of judgement, but based on what you've described I would certainly want to talk to the offending player. Swearing is discouraged due to the family friendly atmosphere we strive for, but a personal attack like that would certainly warrant a stern talking to. Based on the player's reaction to that discussion I may be looking at a game loss, but the warning is almost a dead certainty.

As far as the Infraction Procedure Guide goes, Unsporitng Conduct will either be a Warning or a Game Loss depending on severity, but if the player is being particularly disrespectful and using highly inappropriate language then it will be a Disqualification for Aggressive Behaviour. Again, this is entirely at the discretion of the Head Judge.

Do not be afraid to talk to a judge at the event, if it was enough to prompt your post here then it was certainly worth mentioning at the time. And especially if it happens again. I hope this has been helpful.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Robert Merlow » 25 Mar 2012, 01:08

I appreciate the advice. I never really want to call USC on a player, because it just feels like I may be overreacting. Thanks!
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 25 Mar 2012, 03:47

I know it feels like an overreaction, but everyone deserves to have fun when playing in an event and if someone is preventing you from doing that then chances are they're preventing others from enjoying themselves too, and at that point judges want to try and assist so that everyone goes away happy.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby vxicepickxv » 25 Mar 2012, 11:41

vazhkatsi wrote:this is a trivial one, but does the ability to have as many relentless rats in a deck as you want trump the EDH rule of only one of each card per deck? we were pretty sure that card rules trump normal rules, but we weren't sure. its also a purely hypothetical deck.
EDH is considered a constructed format and Relentless Rats does trump the rules.

However, No other card in EDH trumps the rules about deck size, so you are still limited to 99+commander.


Now I'm off to explain why there's an old EDH ruling from 2004 involving Relentless Rats, and MTGO. (Hint MTGO had EDH Singleton before Fifth Dawn came out).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drinnik » 25 Mar 2012, 16:49

I have a question; my other half and I were playing the other day and he killed my planeswalker. Can I use Raise Dead or a similar card to return her to my hand?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 25 Mar 2012, 16:58

It's not a creature card, so you can't use Raise Dead to bring it back. But something that doesn't specify "creature card", like Recollect, will work.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby psychopez » 25 Mar 2012, 18:56

So not a question for a judge, but since this is rules related throwing this out there.

On MTGO, I Prey Uponed a 3/1 First Strike werewolf against a 2/1 Lantren Spirit, and both creatures died. My opponent and I both were surprised. First Strike doesn't work in a non-combat phase setting, probably because the First Strike phase is a separate sub phase of the Attacking/Combat phase, and 'making creatures attack each other' outside of that removes bonuses like First Strike and Double Strike.

At least that is what we figured. Is that true oh wise judge? (Guess there was a question after all, yay on topic.)

If that's true, Prey Upon has defensive uses I didn't think about. If your big baddie has First Strike and low strength, I can prey upon it against one of my chumps...though I wager instants to buff damage would be usable during the combat?

So, going back a few cycles to when I played, could you use Prey Upon to make a shadow creature attack a non-shadow creature? I would think so, make target creature attack opponent's target creature...wow, plenty of questions after all, glad to stay on topic.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby theDreamer » 25 Mar 2012, 19:00

I'm confused.

You were surprised because the card functioned properly?

EDIT: fight has nothing to do with combat. Fight just means creature one deals damage equal to its power to creature two, and vice versa.

The only reason having the creatures be the source of the damage is for protection purposes. While a red creature and a creature with protection from red can fight, the one with protection won't take damage.

Power/toughness buffs can obviously be applied before the fighting takes place(ie the effect causing it to happen resolves), or before combat damage, so long as they are instant.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 25 Mar 2012, 19:07

Yep - despite the name, the damage caused by the "fights" keyword isn't combat damage, so things that specifically affect combat damage (eg first strike, Ghostly Possession, etc) don't apply, though things that apply to damage in general (eg lifelink, deathtouch, Abattoir Ghoul, etc) do (as it's the creatures dealing damage to each other, not Prey Upon dealing damage to both).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby psychopez » 25 Mar 2012, 19:19

theDreamer wrote:I'm confused.

You were surprised because the card functioned properly?

We both expected the first striker to survive, when both went into the graveyard there was a pause, then a quick conversation in chat "Did that just happen?" "Yeah, I expected the wolf to live b/c first stirke" "Yeah, me too..." Then we worked out that first strike vs combat thing, then I came running here to make sure our theory was correct.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 25 Mar 2012, 23:00

"Fight" is simply a keyword action that involves two creatures dealing damage to one another. (Or one creature dealing damage to itself twice, but that's pretty rare).

Because this isn't combat damage, most creature abilities have no affect on a Fight but a select few do because they apply to all forms of damage:

The following have no impact at all
Trample, First Strike, Double Strike, Defender, Flying, Shadow, Haste, Intimidate, Fear, Reach, Vigilance, Provoke, Exalted, Annihilator, Battle Cry.

The following will matter
Deathtouch, Lifelink, Protection, Absorb, Wither, Infect.

Hexproof and Shroud may affect the targeting of creatures, but don't affect the actual fight itself. Protection is pretty much as you expect, the creature can be protected from the original targeting or protected from the damage that gets dealt. These scenarios are usually pretty self-explanatory.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Ninety-Three » 26 Mar 2012, 08:03

Can I use Artificial Evolution to change cards like Callous Opressor or Harsh Mercy, which don't have a creature type written on them, but do involve choosing a type?

Is Mistform Ultimus every creature type while it's in my deck, or only in play?

If I put Angelic Destiny on an Angel, is the card now an Angel Angel?

If I'm being kept alive at negative life (say, by Platinum Angel), can I still use effects that say "Pay 2 life"? What if the effect says "Pay half your life"?

If I have Mikaeus, The Unhallowed in play and pumped to a base of 8 toughness (to keep him alive), there are effects in play that add up to "All creatures in play get -7 toughness", and I cast an Etched Monstrosity, what happens? What I'm imagining is an infinite loop where it enters play, dies, comes back with a +1/+1 counter which is canceled out by its natural -1/-1 counter, then it dies again because of the -7 toughness effects, then it comes back again because undying doesn't see a +1/+1 counter, and the whole thing loops infinitely. If no player can act to break the loop, what happens to the game? Does it end in a draw?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 26 Mar 2012, 09:55

Ninety-Three wrote:Can I use Artificial Evolution to change cards like Callous Opressor or Harsh Mercy, which don't have a creature type written on them, but do involve choosing a type?

No, Artificial Evolution effectively alters the printed text of the card, so since those examples don't actually contain any creature types in their text you can't change how they work at all.

Ninety-Three wrote:Is Mistform Ultimus every creature type while it's in my deck, or only in play?

Mistform Ultimus, and similarly all of the Changeling cards from the Lorwyn block, is all creature-types at all times, whether it's in your library, hand, graveyard, the battlefield, exile or even outside the game. (It does actually suggest this on the card too).

Ninety-Three wrote:If I put Angelic Destiny on an Angel, is the card now an Angel Angel?

Nope, multiple creature types don't happen. It would just be an Angel.

Ninety-Three wrote:If I'm being kept alive at negative life (say, by Platinum Angel), can I still use effects that say "Pay 2 life"? What if the effect says "Pay half your life"?

You can't pay life you don't have. So if you're in negative life totals you can't pay any amount of life. The catch here is that you can always pay 0 life for something, and half a negative life total is treated as 0 by Magic. So "Pay 2 Life" doesn't work, but "Pay half your life" does.

Extra Information: Magic normally stays clear of negative numbers, but the big exceptions here are a creature's power and toughness and Platinum Angel style effects. The rules are set up to handle these weird cases, but it's not worth going in to immense detail here.

Ninety-Three wrote:If I have Mikaeus, The Unhallowed in play and pumped to a base of 8 toughness (to keep him alive), and there are effects in play that add up to "All creatures in play get -7 toughness", and I cast an Etched Monstrosity, what happens?

Short Answer: The Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield twice (once normally, once from Undying) then stays dead.
Long Answer: Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield the first time with five -1/-1 counters and dies the next time state based actions are checked. Undying now triggers, and when it resolves it will return the Monstrosity to the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters AND a +1/+1 counter.

At this point we have a creature with both kinds of counters on it and an overall toughness of 0 (10 base + 1 from Mikaeus - 7 from other stuff - 5 counters + 1 counter). State based actions are now checked again and immediately put this creature into the graveyard. The counters do not cancel out before this happens. Undying sees a dead creature that, at last check, had a +1/+1 counter, so it won't trigger.

I hope those answers were helpful. Feel free to ask again if you have more :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Ninety-Three » 26 Mar 2012, 10:07

SilPho wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:If I have Mikaeus, The Unhallowed in play and pumped to a base of 8 toughness (to keep him alive), and there are effects in play that add up to "All creatures in play get -7 toughness", and I cast an Etched Monstrosity, what happens?

Short Answer: The Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield twice (once normally, once from Undying) then stays dead.


Drat, and here I was hoping for an infinite loop. But hm, say we have Mikaeus, four Aether Flashes, and cast the Monstrosity. Would we then get an infinite loop, where the Monstrosity enters, gets Flashed to death, returns via undying, puts Flash triggers on the stack, checks state-based actions to remove the +1/+1 counter, then dies to the Flashes again, without a counter to trigger undying again?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 26 Mar 2012, 10:28

Ninety-Three wrote:But hm, say we have Mikaeus, four Aether Flashes, and cast the Monstrosity. Would we then get an infinite loop?

Well, yeah, though why anyone would want to accomplish that particular loop is beyond me :P
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Ninety-Three » 26 Mar 2012, 11:12

SilPho wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:But hm, say we have Mikaeus, four Aether Flashes, and cast the Monstrosity. Would we then get an infinite loop?

Well, yeah, though why anyone would want to accomplish that particular loop is beyond me :P

In the event that some very silly person did achieve that loop, what would happen? Would it be an automatic draw, or would the players sit there watching the loop play out until they either agreed to a draw, or one conceded out of boredom?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 26 Mar 2012, 11:31

716.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw. (See rules 104.4b and 104.4f.)
Since we can't force a player to concede the game to break a loop then forcing the game in to a draw is the only remaining solution.

Also of note, we do not force players to break loops like that even if they are able to but don't want to. In those cases the game is still a draw.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby vxicepickxv » 26 Mar 2012, 23:10

SilPho wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:But hm, say we have Mikaeus, four Aether Flashes, and cast the Monstrosity. Would we then get an infinite loop?

Well, yeah, though why anyone would want to accomplish that particular loop is beyond me :P
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 26 Mar 2012, 23:22

But then it's not quite an "infinite" loop, and there are much better ways of abusing the Disciple. (Though lets keep strategy discussions in the other Magic threads)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 30 Mar 2012, 02:55

What happens if a creature blocks but then becomes tapped before the combat damage is assigned? I've had one person tell me that it essentially cancels the combat, leaving the attacking creature still blocked but with no damage occurring, another say that the attacking creature deals its damage as normal but the tapped blocking creature doesn't, and another say that combat continues as normal, with both creatures damaging each other, the only change being whatever the creatures tap ability did. I've always thought it was the second, but considering how big a difference it could make at times figured I should check.
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