Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 10 Apr 2012, 11:19

At least it's legal ;) And it's probably more consistent than a Commander version.
User avatar
the amativeness
Posts: 3735
Joined: 31 Jul 2008, 19:53
Location: America, where everyone sues everyone, always, for everything.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby the amativeness » 10 Apr 2012, 20:20

Damn, nothing but lands... Mull to 6.

Damn, nothing but lands... Mull to 5.

Damn, nothing but lands... Mull to 4.

Damn, nothing but lands... Mull to 3.

Damn, nothing but lands... Mull to 2.

Alright, so I play a land, and tap it to play Bump in the Night. You take 3.
zA: How do I relax?
Evil Jim: Jerk off.
Frozengale: You know you're on the internet when Masturbation is the first suggestion.
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 10 Apr 2012, 21:32

I did the calculations for the Lost in the Woods deck once... with one Lost in the Woods and 43 forests, you have about a 40-50% chance of casting it on turn 5, even if you're willing to mull all the way to 1 if you don't have it. With the constructed solely-Bump deck, given you have 60 cards to search through, and you need to find all 4 Bumps to deal 20 damage, I imagine you chances are a little lower.

Would it be reducing the purity of the deck to include cards like Reverberate or Increasing Vengeance, if they're only used to copy Bumps?
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
SpicyPete
Posts: 12
Joined: 15 Aug 2007, 22:48

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SpicyPete » 16 Apr 2012, 00:14

I'm sorry if this has already been asked but...
Hexproof in regards to Planeswalker loyalty abilities.
Is a creature or player that is hexproof immune to a Planeswalker's ability? eg
hex proof creature vs Sarkhan Vol -2: Gain control of target creature until end of turn,
or
hexproof player vs Sorin Markov -3: Target opponent's life total becomes 10.
Thanks.
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Apr 2012, 04:38

Don't worry about asking the same thing twice, if it has been asked before I can copy and paste the reply :-)

As for Hexproof, anything with Hexproof cannot be targeted by anything an opponent controls, which includes Planeswalkers. So for both of the examples you've asked about, neither of them work (As long as the person controlling the Planeswalker isn't using the ability against themselves).
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 16 Apr 2012, 09:40

Prowess of the Fair triggers when a nontoken elf is put into the graveyard from play. Does that count tribal instants/sorceries going to the graveyard after resolving?

What happens if two attacking creatures have Lure?
ImageImage
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Apr 2012, 09:55

1st answer:
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer:Prowess of the Fair only looks for Elves that hit the graveyard from the battlefield. That last part is the key. Instants and sorceries go straight from the stack to the graveyard after resolving.

2nd answer:
Short Answer: Every creature must block something, but they don't all have to block the same creature.
Long Answer: Lure type effects create a kind of blocking requirement, and when declaring attackers or blockers you must fulfil as many requirements as you possibly can without violating any restrictions. This subject is a little more complex than that, knowing what restrictions and requirements are helps but that's a little beyond the scope of this question. In the case of two Lures, as long as every creature able to block is blocking something you have done the best you can so it's legal. If any creature could block both, it has to block both.
Ninety-Three
Posts: 39
Joined: 26 Mar 2012, 07:30
First Video: Unskippable: Lost Planet

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Ninety-Three » 16 Apr 2012, 11:35

If I cast two Night of Soul's Betrayal, they'll both be destroyed by the legend rule, but will creatures with two toughness die in the split-second that they both exist?

For the purposes of a "Whenever a creature becomes tapped" effect like Gideon's Avenger, does using a "Tap target creature" ability on an already tapped creature count?

Let's say we have an Arcbound Bruiser with five counters on it, and Doubling Season in play. We play Cloudshift on the Bruiser. How many counters does it come back with?
User Control Panel -> Board preferences -> Edit display options -> Display Signatures: No
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Apr 2012, 11:51

Ninety-Three wrote:If I cast two Night of Soul's Betrayal, they'll both be destroyed by the legend rule, but will creatures with two toughness die in the split-second that they both exist?

Yes, both the "Legend Rule" and the death of creatures with 0 toughness are state-based-actions, and they all happen at once.

Ninety-Three wrote:For the purposes of a "Whenever a creature becomes tapped" effect like Gideon's Avenger, does using a "Tap target creature" ability on an already tapped creature count?

Nope, only the actual change of status from one to another will trigger abilities like that.

Ninety-Three wrote:Let's say we have an Arcbound Bruiser with five counters on it, and Doubling Season in play. We play Cloudshift on the Bruiser. How many counters does it come back with?

6. The Modular ability will not trigger when the Bruiser is exiled because it isn't dying, then Doubling Season simply doubles the 3 it normally enters with.
User avatar
Graham
Super Moderator
Posts: 15038
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 19:37
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Graham » 16 Apr 2012, 23:19

I just watched LSV's latest Mirrodin (original) block draft and he was describing some wacky shenanigans involving Avarice Totem.

I basically understand it, but figured you could describe in full for others in the thread because it sounds delightfully busted.
Basically, with 10 mana, you target what you want of theirs, then respond by targeting something useless of yours.

You end up with the totem back AND their card, and they get your plank.
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 16 Apr 2012, 23:33

Graham wrote:Basically, with 10 mana, you target what you want of theirs, then respond by targeting something useless of yours.

I would assume vice-versa? You want the exchange of the totem with your useless permanent to resolve last, so that you get the totem back at the end.

Looks like a neat trick, though. Trying to think if the person you're doing this to can interrupt it somehow... I think that if they have 5 mana available then they can let the first exchange resolve, so they now have control of the totem, with the second exchange (to give you the totem back) still on the stack, and then activate the ability targeting the same useless card you targeted, and then the totem and your useless card swap twice, and they get to keep the totem. Of course, if you also have another 5 mana up, you can do the same, and the fighting continues until one of you can't afford the ability any more...
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 16 Apr 2012, 23:34

Are you putting Avarice Totem's ability on the stack twice in a row for that to happen?

First time ability resolves, opponent gets totem, you get opponent's permanent

Second time totem comes back to you and opponent gets your useless thing?

Edit: Yep that's what it says in the ruling box :D

Actually I have a question, more for curiosity really. The new Miracle keyword for Avacyn Restored - if you draw the card as the first for the turn you can instantly cast it for a hugely reduced cost. Does that mean that drawing a card and adding it to your hand are counted as two separate actions? Doesn't really mean anything in the long run but I was curious as to how that would actually work.
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
beramode0
Posts: 806
Joined: 24 Mar 2012, 21:48
First Video: Questionably Legal Man
Location: Korea

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby beramode0 » 17 Apr 2012, 02:16

So this is kinda less of a rules thing but I think you guys can help me here. I got this for 10bucks today
Image
Do you think this was worth the money?
Twitter Steam Facebook
Add as a friend/Follow at your own risk.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 17 Apr 2012, 03:05

Is that a first edition? Really?

It may not be legal in many tournaments but for collector value it could be worth a lot.
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 17 Apr 2012, 03:09

Avarice Totem: A trickster's guide

The Classic trick
Let's say we activate the totem twice, once targeting our useless Darksteel Relic, then again targeting an opponent's awesome angel. First, one item on the stack resolves, exchanging control of the totem and the angel. Assuming no further actions, the second item on the stack will resolve, exchanging control of the totem and our relic. We now control the totem and the opponent's creature at the cost of one useless permanent and 10 mana. Not bad.

But what if you mess it up?
If we activate the totem twice but target the angel first and then target the Darksteel Relic, the first resolution will end up doing nothing because we already control both and then the second will simply swap the totem and angel. So you still end up with the angel, but you've lost the totem so your opponent can now start playing tricks on you.

What can my opponent do?
Let's say you're half way through the classic trick above, you've got the angel and you're waiting for the totem to switch with the relic. If your opponent (who controls the totem) decides to activate the totem targeting the Darksteel relic then the permanents are going to swap places twice, ending up with you in control of the angel and relic, your opponent meanwhile has the totem. Alternatively, they could just target the angel, giving you back the totem in time for the original activation (the one targeting the relic) to resolve and do nothing.

What about bouncing something?
You might think you could bounce the totem back to your hand in response to activating it and flat out steal something. But you can't. The word "exchange" has a special meaning in Magic, and if you can't do the full exchange you don't do any of it. This also applies to giving shroud to the permanent the totem does target, the target becomes illegal so the whole exchange fails.

What guarantees can I make?
If your opponent is tapped out then you can safely play the classic trick and permanently swap permanents without giving them the chance to respond, but if they have enough mana open after the first swap then they have as much power as you did.


Regarding Miracles:
Because the miracles must be cast as you draw them the rule here is that as soon as the card touches the rest of the cards in your hand you have passed your window of opportunity. This prevents any shenanigans with getting cards mixed up. This way judges don't need to listen to "No really, it was this card I drew" because if there's any doubt then it's already too late.

Basically, if you know you have miracles in your deck, make sure you are wary of drawing cards too quickly. Judges aren't going to be lenient here.


Regarding the value of the picture above:
The white border and copyright text mean those cards are from 4th edition. I wouldn't get your hopes up for them being worth a lot of money, but $10 could be reasonable, hard to say for sure without knowing exactly what is in there. (And I'm not that well read on values of most old cards).
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 17 Apr 2012, 03:15

Sorry, with the box design I thought it was a first edition - matching the back of the cards and such.
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
TomBrend
Posts: 3890
Joined: 24 Apr 2008, 17:43
First Video: long long ago...
Location: MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby TomBrend » 17 Apr 2012, 06:47

four isochron scepters, four mirrodon orbs, four bumps in the night, fill the rest with swamps.

mulligan until you have an isochron and a bump, or can't mulligan any more.
Image
User avatar
the_lone_bard
Posts: 1870
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 08:39
First Video: Black box...i think.
Location: The other victoria (aus)
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby the_lone_bard » 17 Apr 2012, 08:27

So judgeman! This is a ruling I already know the answer too, but nobody else seems to have payed attention to wording! (Also to be followed with a miracle wording tip.)

With the Drogskul reaver, the text says that you draw a card "Whenever you gain life."
So no matter how many permanants with lifelink you have, if they all attack and hit at the same time, you still only draw one card, because you're only gaining life once. Not once for each source of life-gain.


Also, the miracle text says that you may play a spell for it's miracle cost as soon as you draw it, if it's the first card you drew this turn. So yes, that means that sorcerys gain instant speed in your opponents phase if say, they Jace you and you both draw a card. If it's your first this turn and it's a Miracle sorcery, you get to play it for it's miracle cost and ignore that whole "Sorcery" part of the card. Am I the onlyone who has noticed this so far? Cause everytime someone mentions half of the Miracle cards they say something like "too bad it's only a sorcery" or "Too bad you can't use it in your opponents turn."
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/lone.bard
MsN: [email protected]
Skype: [email protected]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/TheLoneBard
Twitter: Thelonebard

I'm mean because you're stupid.
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 17 Apr 2012, 09:14

Really? The instant sorcery thing is half of what all the blue players I know have been losing their shit over. Different circles I guess.
ImageImage
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 17 Apr 2012, 10:27

the_lone_bard wrote:With the Drogskul reaver, the text says that you draw a card "Whenever you gain life."
So no matter how many permanants with lifelink you have, if they all attack and hit at the same time, you still only draw one card, because you're only gaining life once. Not once for each source of life-gain.

Um, actually, that's wrong. You draw a card for each lifelink creature.

603.2c An ability triggers only once each time its trigger event occurs. However, it can trigger repeatedly if one event contains multiple occurrences

There's also a clarification for that on Drogskol Reaver's Gatherer page.


As for people bad-mouthing the Miracles, yes, they do circumvent the timing restrictions (otherwise Sorcery miracles would just flat out not work) but the reason people will complain is because if you miss the Miracle window then you're stuck with a pretty pricey sorcery speed spell.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 17 Apr 2012, 11:08

Moral of the story: PAY ATTENTION! :D
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
Robert Merlow
Posts: 165
Joined: 19 Aug 2009, 23:57
First Video: Phailhaus 11
Location: Where Charles Shultz Lived

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Robert Merlow » 18 Apr 2012, 00:28

I have a question about the concept of "flickering:"

If someone targets a creature you control (ie: targeting a Delver with Gut Shot) then you flicker the card at instant speed how does the stack break down here?

Is it:
Creature exiles then returns to the battlefield
Card finds its target, then the effect occurs

OR

Is it:
Creature exiles then returns to the battlefield
Card does not find its target, then effect fizzles
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Apr 2012, 01:27

Basically, the creature is a completely different creature, it just looks very similar in most cases. Anything trying to target the original creature cannot do so. It's a bit like replacing your car with another one of the same make and model, it's the same car but it's not the *same* car, and Magic spells want to be certain they get exactly the right target.

Points to remember about "Flicker"
A token cannot be flickered, it will leave the battlefield but it will not come back.
Creatures returning to the battlefield have summoning sickness.
"When [this] enters the battlefield..." and "As [this] enters the battlefield..." abilities still work as normal on return.
Any counters or other effects do not apply to the returning creature.
Any auras or equipment will fall off, auras will go to the graveyard and equipment will need to be re-equpped.
Double faced cards will come back "Sunny side up", i.e. not transformed.
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 18 Apr 2012, 02:01

What happens if Sakashima the Impostor copies a creature that is not always a creature, for example an activated Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus? If this is done to Gideon Jura using his 0 ability would they both die because of the planeswalker rules? Can you cast Sakashima (or other Clone type creatures), coming in as copies of Gideon as a creature, then as a reaction to that cast another spell to exile him allowing your clone to enter play as Gideon safely?
ImageImage
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Apr 2012, 03:48

Regarding cloning a creature that isn't always a creature.
Short Answer: You can a non-animated copy.
Long Answer: Whenever you copy something you actually get an exact copy of the 'card', not a copy of the permanent as it currently exists. When you play a Clone and chose a Grizzly Bear, you might as well be casting a Grizzly Bear. If you play a Clone and choose an animated Gideon Jura you might as well be casting a Gideon yourself, it will come in with 6 loyalty counters, will not be a creature, and is going to get sent to the graveyard because of state-based-actions. Choose an animated Inkmoth Nexus and you end up with a standard, non-animated land of your own.

Copy effects are like photocopies of cards rather than exact copies of permanents.

Specifically regarding cloning a Gideon
Short Answer: You can't cast a spell to save your Gideon.
Long Answer: You select the choice for Clone when the spell resolves, not when you cast it. So before you get another chance to act the "Legend Rule" state-based-action will already have done its thing. Someone may be able to present some crazy corner-case that gets around this, but 99% of the time you can't do it.

Return to “Magic: The Gathering”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests