Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 23 Apr 2013, 17:31

Yes, they're "attacking" as soon as they're declared in the Declare Attackers step. In particular, this means you can bloodrush Wandering Wolf/Howlgeist/Champion of Lambholt before blockers, for the sweet evasion tech. You can also Bloodrush in response to Wild Beastmaster's trigger, for excitement and happiness for everyone (except your opponent).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ZePancakes » 23 Apr 2013, 18:59

Sweet, I've been doing it as such and was wondering if I got it wrong (it is a important component to my deck).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AzureAngel17 » 24 Apr 2013, 01:35

Gatherer has been updated with the Dragon's Maze cards, and I'm delighted to have found out that Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts will almost single-handedly solve my troubles with a certain invisible hexproof man that has been plaguing me in games with a certain friend. :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 24 Apr 2013, 03:19

AzureAngel17 wrote:Gatherer has been updated with the Dragon's Maze cards, and I'm delighted to have found out that Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts will almost single-handedly solve my troubles with a certain invisible hexproof man that has been plaguing me in games with a certain friend. :)


i hate that little bastard too. Teysa just went way up in value if you ask me now we know she can kill hexproof dudes
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lord Hosk » 24 Apr 2013, 16:28

When does a turn end?

Is it Player who went first, Player who goes second, Player who goes third... Last Player (turn end) Player who went first, Player who goes second, Player who goes third... Last Player

Or is it Pirst player (turn end) second player (turn end) third player (turn ends)

The reason I ask is in reference to "Until end of turn" for example.

I win the die roll and choose to go first. On turn 7 I have a 1/1 creature in play and a Hold the Gates making it a 1/4 with vigilance on my main phase I cast Righteous Charge and attack with a 3/6 who doesnt tap. on my opponents turn do I have a 3/6 or a 1/4?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 24 Apr 2013, 16:50

Lord Hosk wrote:I win the die roll and choose to go first. On turn 7 I have a 1/1 creature in play and a Hold the Gates making it a 1/4 with vigilance on my main phase I cast Righteous Charge and attack with a 3/6 who doesnt tap. on my opponents turn do I have a 3/6 or a 1/4?

1/4. A turn is a single player's turn.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 25 Apr 2013, 01:03

i have a question regarding Savageborn Hydra. say i have 3 counters on him and for whatever reason i want to use bioshift to move those counters elsewhere, but before hydra dies from SBA being checked i activate his ability to add a counter to him. this is obviously during my main phase.
so could i for instance

cast bioshift and while bioshift is on the stack activate hydras ability to add 1 counter. bioshift resolves and moves the 3 counters and then the hydra ability resolves to add another counter to it so it lives as a 1/1

as i understand it SBA wont get checked while a spell/ability is on the stack
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AzureAngel17 » 25 Apr 2013, 01:44

Lemegeton wrote:so could i for instance

cast bioshift and while bioshift is on the stack activate hydras ability to add 1 counter. bioshift resolves and moves the 3 counters and then the hydra ability resolves to add another counter to it so it lives as a 1/1

as i understand it SBA wont get checked while a spell/ability is on the stack


First off, Savageborn Hydra's ability states that it can only be activated anytime you could play a sorcery spell, so that would have to go on the stack first and only during one of your main phases, ruling out any fancy combat tricks with that. If you cast Bioshift in response and move all of the counters off of the Hydra before its ability resolves, then it will die before its own effect adds a counter back. However, Bioshift lets you choose how many counters you move, so you can just activate the ability, let it resolve and add a counter, then move all but one counter from the Hydra elsewhere.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 25 Apr 2013, 02:19

shit it looks like i was overthinking that one a bit too much.
now i feel dumb :cry:
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Tzimisce » 25 Apr 2013, 03:58

Lord Hosk wrote:When does a turn end?
Or is it first player (turn end) second player (turn end) third player (turn ends)

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 25 Apr 2013, 12:01

Lemegeton wrote:as i understand it SBA wont get checked while a spell/ability is on the stack


What Azure said is right. Though it's worth mentioning that I think there is some basis to this line of thinking. I believe that was in the old rules. Anymore, a state-based action happens even if things are still on the stack. Meaning no pulling off fancy tricks like that anymore.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 25 Apr 2013, 23:23

SBAs are checked pretty much constantly... before any player would receive priority, whether that's with the stack empty or with spells on the stack, or whether it's because it's your turn in your main phase and you get priority then, or because it's your opponent's turn and they've passed priority to you...

Honestly, it's remember it as when SBAs aren't checked... which is in the middle of any atomic thing. For instance, they aren't checked in the middle of a spell resolving. They're obviously checked immediately before and immediately after the spell resolves, but not in-between. So if you cast a spell that causes a creature to become a 0/0 temporarily, but it has a positive toughness before that spell finishes resolving, then it'll be fine.

For example, say your opponent has no cards in their graveyard, and you cast Mark of Mutiny on their Consuming Aberration. The ordering of the effects on Mark says you gain control of it, and then it gets a +1/+1 counter... so it comes across to your side as a 0/0, and then becomes a 1/1. But that's all within a single spell resolving, so SBAs aren't checked in-between.

You may have noticed this in MtGO with Dinrova Horror bouncing a token - the token stays in your hand while you're deciding what card to discard, as that's all part of the resolution of the same ability. Once it finishes resolving, SBAs are checked and the token disappears.

The other time SBAs aren't checked is in the middle of a turn-based action, like drawing a card in your Draw step, or declaring attackers. I'm pretty sure you can come up with a collection of cards and replacement effects that will replace your draw in your draw step with something horrifyingly complicated... and SBAs won't be checked during the resolution of that.

But other than that... if your question starts "will SBAs be checked before I can..." then the answer is most likely "Yes".

And so, to pick an example that actually works... say you cast Take targeting your Savageborn Hydra, since that says to remove all counters (as opposed to Bioshift, which says to move any number of counters). Then even if the Hydra's ability could be activated at instant speed, or even if you have a Burst of Strength in hand, or anything of the like... there's no way to stack it so that the Hydra survives, using just +1/+1 counters. You would need to find some other way to buff up its toughness, like a Giant Growth or Bloodrush, (or Turn, for confused looks you'd get from your opponent).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Myrph » 26 Apr 2013, 11:02

I still enjoy the fact that the only thing that has been judge ruled as being faster than checking a state based action, or at least the fastest action that you can take, is the act of removing one's trousers.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby guidance » 30 Apr 2013, 22:22

If you dragonshift the Nivix Cyclops does it still get the +3/+0 ?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 01 May 2013, 00:44

i'm open to correction here but i'm pretty sure it wont get +3+0

when you cast dragonshift it will go on the stack and the ability from nivix cyclops will trigger and the trigger goes on the stack.

nivix cyclops ability resolves first and gets +3+0 but then dragonshift will resolve and over-write the existing p/t of nivix cyclops. so it will just be a 4/4 dragon.

the rulings for dragonshift clearly state
Dragonshift overwrites all previous effects that set a creature’s power or toughness to specific values. However, effects that set a creature’s power or toughness to specific values that start to apply after Dragonshift resolves will overwrite this effect.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 01 May 2013, 03:24

Interaction of continuous effects is one of the more... interesting parts of Magic rules.

In this case, the parts we want are:
Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number
Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value)

So, if I'm reading that correctly, you apply the layers in order, setting the creature to a 4/4, then giving it +3/+0, so a 7/4.

The important part of the Dragonshift ruling is "Dragonshift overwrites all previous effects that set a creature’s power or toughness to specific values." which giving it +3/+0 does not.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 01 May 2013, 04:07

this is not a continuous effect though. dragonshift is not applying effects to the card its changing its base stats. the issue here is where dragonshift and the triggered ability sit on the stack.
the more i think about it the more i think my initial assessment was wrong. i think dragonshift and the trigger from the cyclops will go on the stack together meaning you can put the trigger on the stack first and then dragonshift. so dragonshift resolves first and then the trigger so you will have a 7/4 dragon

again i am no judge so i'm probably working this out wrong
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 01 May 2013, 04:51

No, I'm fairly confident you were right about the stack order the first time.

I'm far less sure about the other part though. I'm going to have to do some more reading...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drecon » 01 May 2013, 04:59

Lemegeton wrote:this is not a continuous effect though. dragonshift is not applying effects to the card its changing its base stats. the issue here is where dragonshift and the triggered ability sit on the stack.
the more i think about it the more i think my initial assessment was wrong. i think dragonshift and the trigger from the cyclops will go on the stack together meaning you can put the trigger on the stack first and then dragonshift. so dragonshift resolves first and then the trigger so you will have a 7/4 dragon

again i am no judge so i'm probably working this out wrong


This is definitely wrong.

The Cyclops trigger is a response to casting the Dragonshift. Therefore it will go on the stack after it and resolve before it.
According to the rule posted by Korvis the +3/+0 would apply first, and only after that the p/t setting from Dragonshift is applied, making the creature a 4/4.

A good example of a continuous effect that would work with Dragonshift are +1/+1 counters, that apply after the setting of the power and toughness. Therefore if the Cyclops had two +1/+1 counters placed on it before Dragonshift resolved, it would end up a 6/6 because of it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 01 May 2013, 06:41

Drecon wrote:
Lemegeton wrote:this is not a continuous effect though. dragonshift is not applying effects to the card its changing its base stats. the issue here is where dragonshift and the triggered ability sit on the stack.
the more i think about it the more i think my initial assessment was wrong. i think dragonshift and the trigger from the cyclops will go on the stack together meaning you can put the trigger on the stack first and then dragonshift. so dragonshift resolves first and then the trigger so you will have a 7/4 dragon

again i am no judge so i'm probably working this out wrong


This is definitely wrong.

The Cyclops trigger is a response to casting the Dragonshift. Therefore it will go on the stack after it and resolve before it.
According to the rule posted by Korvis the +3/+0 would apply first, and only after that the p/t setting from Dragonshift is applied, making the creature a 4/4.

A good example of a continuous effect that would work with Dragonshift are +1/+1 counters, that apply after the setting of the power and toughness. Therefore if the Cyclops had two +1/+1 counters placed on it before Dragonshift resolved, it would end up a 6/6 because of it.


ok so I was right the first time. :shock:
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 01 May 2013, 06:56

Short Answer: Nivix Cyclops will be a 7/4.

Longer Answer: Both of these are continuous effects... both create an affect that continues to adjust the Cyclops's power and toughness after the spell or ability has resolved, in this case lasting until the end of the turn. And so the layers apply. As korvys quoted, abilities that set the power and toughness always apply before abilities that adjust the power and toughness, regardless of what order they resolved. So the affect making the Cyclops a 4/4 applies before the effect giving it +3/+0, so the final stats are 7/4.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 01 May 2013, 08:05

I bow to the master. but WOW i find that a very confusing interaction.
it seems the line between what counts as SETting P/T and ADJUSTing is a little blurry.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby guidance » 01 May 2013, 11:44

Wow that was confusing so what happens if I cast weapon surge targeting Nivix Cyclops and in response to the casting cast dragon shift targeting the Nivix Cyclops? I want to see how much I can break this guy.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 01 May 2013, 12:29

Thanks for the clarification, phlip.

Lemegeton, if you're interested (I know I was) here's the Continuous effects rules.

Important section:

Code: Select all

611. Continuous Effects
  611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period.
  611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability.
    611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as "until end of turn"). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game.



guidance, the Cyclops will trigger again for every spell until the Dragonshift resolves, which will take away it's triggered ability.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Rootbreaker » 01 May 2013, 12:42

guidance wrote:Wow that was confusing so what happens if I cast weapon surge targeting Nivix Cyclops and in response to the casting cast dragon shift targeting the Nivix Cyclops? I want to see how much I can break this guy.

Nivix's cyclops' ability triggers twice. When both those triggers and both spells have resolved, there is one affect making him 4/4, removing his abilities and granting him flying, 2 giving him +3/+0, and one giving him +1/+0 and granting first strike.

We go through the layer order. None of these effects do anything in layers 1-5. In layer 6, ability added and removing effects take place. They are applied in time stamp order. Because you cast the dragon shift in response to the weapon surge, the dragon shift resolves first, giving it an earlier time stamp, so it applies first.

First, it removes the abilities of the cyclops, including defender. Then it adds flying. Then the weapon surge applies, giving it first strike.

Then we move on to layer 7, which is made up of several sublayers.

None of these effects apply in layer 7a, d, or e.
In layer 7b, the dragonshift applies, setting the cyclops' P/T to 4/4.
In layers 7c, the other 3 effects apply, adding 7 power total to the cyclops. The order isn't important here, but it would be cyclops trigger then surge, then cyclops trigger, in the order that they resovled.

The cyclops ends as an 11/4 with flying, first strike, and no other abilities (including defender or its triggered ability).

The effect of the cyclops' trigger to let it attack as though it didn't have defender is not a characteristic of the cyclops itself, but a modification of the rules.

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