Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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azazel243
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby azazel243 » 17 Jan 2014, 21:48

Im thinking because you cant splice the same spell mutipule time onto the arcane spell you wouldnt be allowed to.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jan 2014, 21:57

First off, I wasn't around when arcane was a thing, so I'm not 100% on this. But I'm confident you can.

You can't splice onto a spell multiple times when you first cast it. The second time, it's a new spell on the stack. Because of that, I think you can do it. That rule is meant to prevent you from splicing the same spell onto one card multiple times.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby azazel243 » 17 Jan 2014, 22:00

Thanks! :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jan 2014, 22:04

It'd likely be wise to wait to get an official judge's answer, just to be safe. I'm not familiar enough with old rules to be 100% sure, and that seems like an odd interaction
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Jan 2014, 02:39

Kapol has it right.

It's true that you can't splice the same card onto a single spell more than once, but what you're doing here is splicing Desperate Ritual onto a new spell, even though that spell was generated by the same card that created the original spell.

On the stack we tend to use cards to represent the spells they have created because it's simpler that way, but on a technical basis "spells" and "cards" are different things.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 18 Jan 2014, 03:07

Right. Just like how when a creature leaves the battlefield and comes back it's a "new" creature, with no characteristics of the old creature (counters, targets, being tapped, whatever) carrying over... if a spell leaves the stack and comes back (say, if it resolves and then later you flash it back), then it's a "new" spell, with no characteristics of the old spell (including "has been spliced onto with this splice spell").
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 18 Jan 2014, 10:00

So if I Act of Treason an NME creature, then use it for Rescue from the Underworld, do I get said NME creature permanently?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Jan 2014, 10:49

Assuming that by "NME" you mean an "enemy player's" creature then yes.

Even though the creature will go to your opponent's graveyard when it is sacrificed, Rescue from the Underworld does not specify that the cards have to come back from your graveyard* so it doesn't care that you don't own the creature. And since the card has changed zones a few times Act of Treason doesn't keep track of it.

*or, indeed, any graveyard in the case of some sort of replacement effect
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 18 Jan 2014, 15:36

So you can use anything you control, no matter whether you own it or whether it goes into your graveyard, for the sac, but the target to bring back has to be in your graveyard (at the time of casting), right?

Also, does "Rescue from the Underworld does not specify that the cards have to come back from your graveyard" mean that if the card that I targeted in the graveyard is somewhere else on my upkeep (exiled, in my hand, on the field under an opponent's control), it still comes back to me?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 18 Jan 2014, 16:02

AdmiralMemo wrote:So you can use anything you control, no matter whether you own it or whether it goes into your graveyard, for the sac, but the target to bring back has to be in your graveyard (at the time of casting), right?

Also, does "Rescue from the Underworld does not specify that the cards have to come back from your graveyard" mean that if the card that I targeted in the graveyard is somewhere else on my upkeep (exiled, in my hand, on the field under an opponent's control), it still comes back to me?


For the first, that's correct. It specifically says that it has to be in your graveyard.

For the second, that's not what he's getting at. According to Gatherer's rulings:

9/15/2013 If either the sacrificed creature or the target creature card leaves the graveyard before the delayed triggered ability resolves during your next upkeep, it won’t return.
9/15/2013 However, if the sacrificed creature is put into another public zone instead of the graveyard, perhaps because it’s your commander or because of another replacement effect, it will return to the battlefield from the zone it went to


Basically, his point was that, if the card is exiled or returned to the command zone as it dies due to a replacement effect, it'll come back. If it goes to the graveyard and THEN goes somewhere else, then it doesn't return. I'm not sure about effects that return the card to your deck though... (thinking of Worldspine Wurm and the like specifically). I would think you couldn't get them back due to the fact they're in your deck.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 18 Jan 2014, 16:21

OK, so it's essentially "Where it goes pretty much doesn't matter if replacement effects are in play, but it has to stay there."

So if you sac your guy and target a creature in your graveyard, and your opponent does Rise from the Grave on one of them, you don't get it back on your upkeep. I think I've got it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 20 Jan 2014, 13:26

So, when Tokens die, do they trigger "put into the graveyard" effects?
When Tokens are returned to hand, do they trigger "dies" effects?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 20 Jan 2014, 13:32

To the first, the answer is yes. It will trigger 'whenever a creature enters the graveyard' effects and the like. They won't have any chance to be brought back or anything though. What happens is they go to the graveyard, and then cease to exist due to a state-based action.

For the second, no. They don't die, so they don't trigger die effects.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 20 Jan 2014, 15:22

One thing I want to clarify: tokens don't count as "cards" right? So if something references "creature cards" doing things like dying, tokens don't trigger those, right?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Haza Vair » 20 Jan 2014, 15:56

I cast Diabolic Servitude and target Murderous Redcap in my graveyard with the enchantment's ETB effect. I then sacrifice the Redcap to my Viscera Seer in order to scry 1, so that the stack looks like this after I order my triggers:

Scry 1
Diabolic Servitude "When that creature dies" trigger
Persist trigger

The Persist trigger resolves, and then Murderous Redcap re-enters the battlefield, and its own trigger is put onto the stack and resolved.

My question: As the Diabolic Servitude trigger resolves, does Redcap remain in play? The Servitude I know returns to the hand, but I'm not sure whether the Redcap stays on the battlefield or is exiled.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 20 Jan 2014, 16:04

When the Diabolic Servitude trigger goes to resolve, it tries to exile the Murderous Redcap from your graveyard, but it's not there any more, so that doesn't happen. It's not targeted, though, so it will still resolve, and the other effects will still happen, so the Servitude will still return to your hand.

When it returns to your hand, its other trigger will happen, to "exile the creature put onto the battlefield with Diabolic Servitude"... but that will also do nothing, as it's referring to the original incarnation of the Redcap, not the persisted one. So this also has no effect.

Net result: the Redcap stays in play, the Servitude ends up in your hand.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 20 Jan 2014, 18:06

AdmiralMemo wrote:One thing I want to clarify: tokens don't count as "cards" right? So if something references "creature cards" doing things like dying, tokens don't trigger those, right?


I'm not sure of any cards worded like that off hand. From what I've seen/understand, creatures on the battlefield are just referred to creatures. If an effect happens when a creature on the battlefield leaves the battlefield, it should just reference it as a creature, not a creature card. It'll only reference something as a creature card if it's in another zone, at least by modern standpoints. Any reference that does it otherwise might be outdated and been corrected by the correct wording.

That is, if I'm not wrong. Which I can be. As I've pointed out many a time, I'm not actually a judge. Hell, I'm not even a rules advisor. :P
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 20 Jan 2014, 18:37

Kapol wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:One thing I want to clarify: tokens don't count as "cards" right? So if something references "creature cards" doing things like dying, tokens don't trigger those, right?
I'm not sure of any cards worded like that off hand. From what I've seen/understand, creatures on the battlefield are just referred to creatures. If an effect happens when a creature on the battlefield leaves the battlefield, it should just reference it as a creature, not a creature card. It'll only reference something as a creature card if it's in another zone, at least by modern standpoints. Any reference that does it otherwise might be outdated and been corrected by the correct wording.

That is, if I'm not wrong. Which I can be. As I've pointed out many a time, I'm not actually a judge. Hell, I'm not even a rules advisor. :P
Well, I don't know of any cards worded like that, either.

I'm mainly thinking of Death's Approach (and other similar cards).
Gatherer wrote:Enchanted creature gets -X/-X, where X is the number of creature cards in its controller's graveyard.
If your opponent has no creatures in his graveyard, you put DA on your opponent's Frontline Medic, and then kill off 3 of his Soldier tokens, does the Medic die? 3 creatures died and were in the graveyard, at least momentarily, but were they creature cards in the graveyard?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 20 Jan 2014, 18:47

Alright, so here's the ruling:

216.2. A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. A token isn’t a card (even if represented by a card that has a Magic back or that came from a Magic booster pack).


So no, a token is not a card.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Da-Noggin » 20 Jan 2014, 23:03

So question, in EDH, I was in a match in which two, Teferi Mage of Zhalfir are on the field, both under control by separate players... what happens?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 20 Jan 2014, 23:17

I believe that everyone can only cast at sorcery speed until one of them gets removed. Then standard rules apply when only one is active.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 21 Jan 2014, 08:14

One of the rulings says:
Gatherer wrote:The last ability means that in order for an opponent to cast a spell, it must be that opponent's turn, during a main phase, and the stack must be empty. This is true even if the player doesn't have a sorcery he or she is able to cast, or if a rule or effect allows a spell to be cast at another time.
Note that last sentence. If your opponent has one out, it doesn't matter if your creatures have Flash now. They can still only be cast at Sorcery speed. Instants are now only Sorcery-speed-playable. Since you have one, too, the same applies to your opponent.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 22 Jan 2014, 17:38

Courser of Kruphix: Since it doesn't indicate so, I'm assuming you can't play an extra land on your turn from this. It's just an option if you don't have a land in your hand to play, or want to play that land instead of one in your hand. Confirm?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 22 Jan 2014, 18:02

Memo, correct. It doesn't say you can play an additional land, which means you can't do so. They clarified recently that if you play a land, then it counts as your land for turn, no matter the zone it's coming from.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby nicholasmc1 » 28 Jan 2014, 23:30

Not sure if its been mentioned but how would http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378465 work with Nivix Cyclops. Does it deal 1 damage or 4. I'm not sure about the way the stack works here.

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