Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 30 Jul 2014, 22:11

Yeah... it's something that seems obvious when it's pointed out, but you wouldn't necessarily think of beforehand... when you cast a Morph card face-down, you're essentially telling your opponent "No, really, trust me, this card says Morph on it". If you try to cast a non-morph card face-down, then that's obviously against the rules, and potentially cheating if you know you're doing it... but there's no way for your opponent to verify you're not cheating (since there's no way to reveal the word "Morph" but keep the card's identity secret).

Short of having a judge on-hand to verify every casting of a morph spell, we basically need a way to verify the card... obviously, if it gets turned face-up you can check (either if it gets unmorphed, or if it goes to the graveyard or is exiled face-up)... but if that isn't going to happen (it's going to your hand, or to the library, or to exile face-down, or the game ends) then you need to reveal it, just to say "See? I wasn't cheating after all." Basically, there needs to be no way that you cast a morph card, and then the card goes away without your opponent seeing exactly what that particular card was.

If you do just pick up your morph and (say) put it in your hand, it's a game loss for the same reason Drawing Extra Cards is a game loss... once the card's in your hand, it's impossible to guarantee that any particular card in your hand is actually the card in question... so it's way too easy to get an advantage, and there isn't really any way for the judge to prevent that advantage short of ending the game immediately.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 30 Jul 2014, 22:49

I don't think people are going to forget when the bounce it, or whatever, but sweeping up all your cards at the end of the game, is easy to do, and just as bad.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby VectorZero » 31 Jul 2014, 03:09

So, I was reading up on morph and saw that you can have non-creature permanents with morph, which apparently lets you do some funky combat tricks with assigning damage then morphing out of combat. I understand that even though morph doesn't use the stack, you still need priority. At which point in the combat damage step should you activate morph to assign but not take damage for a non-creature morph permanent, and does it vary for AP v NAP?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 31 Jul 2014, 03:28

It doesn't work anymore. Not since M10.

Last time morph was around was turning Timespiral Block, and there was a land, and enchantment, and an artifact with morph. During that time, combat damage was dealt in 2 steps. First it was assigned, then each player got priority, then damage was dealt. If you unmorphed a creature between those steps, then the damage would be dealt to that non-creature, which won't kill it, obviously.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby VectorZero » 31 Jul 2014, 03:40

Ah, good, so it was a damage on the stack thing. Makes sense why I couldn't figure it out.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby tamaness » 31 Jul 2014, 04:08

you could morph after declaring blockers, instead of morphing in response to damage.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 31 Jul 2014, 04:14

That would certainly give you a blocker that wouldn't die, but you do miss out on killing the attacking creature.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 31 Jul 2014, 08:31

I look at it like block/sac. You do it because you don't want the other creature to deal damage, like if it has lifelink or trample. Or does that not work how I think it does?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 31 Jul 2014, 09:05

Just to be clear: When naming a creature type, one cannot name a creature type that does not exist, or is another card type (IE: "Forest"). Correct?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 31 Jul 2014, 11:40

Pretty much, yes. You need to choose one of these creature types, essentially.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 31 Jul 2014, 11:54

Regarding cards like Upwelling, Omnath, Sakiko, Shizuko, etc. where mana doesn't empty out of your pool...

Even if you have Kruphix out, the mana stays colored, right, since it's not "emptying" from your mana pool. This is correct?

Also, what about mana with restrictions, such as with Sliver Hive, Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, Eldrazi Temple, Pillar of the Paruns, etc.? Do the restrictions stay when the mana doesn't empty from your pool? How about when it becomes colorless due to Kruphix? If I have Kruphix out and generate a green mana with Sliver Hive, when Kruphix makes it colorless, is it still restricted to Sliver spells? (The key question is whether it counts as "the same mana" or not after Kruphix "converts" it.)

Also, the cycle of Changeling instants in Lorwyn count as Sliver spells, right? So I could use Sliver Hive to cast them, right?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Asthanius » 31 Jul 2014, 12:07

AdmiralMemo wrote:Regarding cards like Upwelling, Omnath, Sakiko, Shizuko, etc. where mana doesn't empty out of your pool...

Even if you have Kruphix out, the mana stays colored, right, since it's not "emptying" from your mana pool. This is correct?

Correct.

AdmiralMemo wrote:Also, what about mana with restrictions, such as with Sliver Hive, Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, Eldrazi Temple, Pillar of the Paruns, etc.? Do the restrictions stay when the mana doesn't empty from your pool? How about when it becomes colorless due to Kruphix? If I have Kruphix out and generate a green mana with Sliver Hive, when Kruphix makes it colorless, is it still restricted to Sliver spells? (The key question is whether it counts as "the same mana" or not after Kruphix "converts" it.)

When mana is added to your mana pool, the restrictions associated with it are basically glued to the mana. Kruphix sucking the color out of the mana doesn't get rid of the restrictions.

AdmiralMemo wrote:Also, the cycle of Changeling instants in Lorwyn count as Sliver spells, right? So I could use Sliver Hive to cast them, right?

Instants with the changeling ability have the exact same reminder text as changeling creatures, which references the card having all creature types at all times. Because changeling creatures work that way, so do changeling instants.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Phosphatide » 31 Jul 2014, 16:13

ElFuzzy wrote:I look at it like block/sac. You do it because you don't want the other creature to deal damage, like if it has lifelink or trample. Or does that not work how I think it does?

Trample is a little different. The rules for trample involve dealing lethal damage to a blocker (or multiple blockers) and then the remaining damage to the defending player. If blockers are removed from combat before damage is dealt and the blocked creature had trample, it would "deal lethal to all blockers and the rest to the defending player." Which would be 0 to the now nonexistent blockers and the full damage to the defending player as if it wasn't blocked in the first place (but you can still Smite it if you want).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 07 Aug 2014, 20:05

Just to clarify, any effect that triggers when x "becomes tapped" only does so when the thing goes from an untapped to tapped state, yes?

*edit*

Also, if I cast Natural Affinity and then Polymorphist's Jest, are my opponent's lands still lands?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 07 Aug 2014, 20:46

Yes and yes.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 07 Aug 2014, 22:52

To be clear, in the case of Natural Affinity and Polymorphist's Jest, they're still technically lands, but until end of turn they do not tap for mana.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 07 Aug 2014, 23:01

Atifexe wrote:To be clear, in the case of Natural Affinity and Polymorphist's Jest, they're still technically lands, but until end of turn they do not tap for mana.

Sadly this does not help me. I wanted some way to turn my opponent's lands into creatures without having them retain land status so they'd be affected by Leyline of Singularity.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 08 Aug 2014, 05:45

Atifexe wrote:To be clear, in the case of Natural Affinity and Polymorphist's Jest, they're still technically lands, but until end of turn they do not tap for mana.

I had to look this up, but I think you're right... even for basic lands (or lands with the basic land types), the intrinsic ability "T: add [appropriate colour] to your mana pool" from the basic land type still gets removed by the "loses all abilities" thing... even though it will still have the basic land type (Polymorphist's Jest only removes creature types, not land types). So, turn an animated Forest into a frog and it'll be a "Basic Land Creature - Forest Frog" that still can't be tapped for {G} despite being a Forest.

Discussions about this are surprisingly hard to find... most searches for keywords like "lose all abilities" and "basic land type" just find discussions about Blood Moon and suchlike...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 08 Aug 2014, 06:41

Does Contaminated Ground completely shut down non basic lands? It says, "Enchanted Land is a Swamp." It's not in addition to, so doesn't that mean that it rips any and all effects off other than, "Taps for Black Mana.?" For example if I Enchant a Gate, is it still a gate? It would only tap for Black. Or if I enchant a Reliquary Tower, does it still unlock hand size?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 08 Aug 2014, 06:52

An effect that says that something "is a [type]", without saying "in addition to it's other types", or "it's still an X" or suchlike, means it gains that type, and loses any other types (or, if it's a subtype, it loses all other subtypes of the same type). So, "Enchanted land is a Swamp" means "Enchanted land is a Swamp and loses all other land types". So it's no longer any other basic land type, it's no longer a Gate, it's no longer a Desert or an Urza's or a Tower or any other land type.

As a special case, when something "is a [basic land type]", it also loses "any abilities it would gain from the card text or copy effects". So any abilities printed on the card, or printed on whatever your Vesuva is copying, are also gone along with any land types it may have had... but it'll keep any other abilities that have been granted from other sources. None of this applies if it "is a [basic land type] in addition to its other types".
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 08 Aug 2014, 11:31

Contaminated Ground is the best removal
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby azazel243 » 11 Aug 2014, 07:38

I was plying my edh goblins deck and sacked a bunch of tokens with boggart shenanigans on the field. one of my opponents said the tokens dont actully hit the graveyard so it dosnt trigger. is that true?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 11 Aug 2014, 07:54

This is a common misconception, owing to the fact that tokens can't exist outside the battlefield. All permanents, whether tokens or not, go to the graveyard if they die. The next time state based effects are checked (that is, anyone gets the opportunity to do anything), they cease to exist. Tokens dying will trigger anything looking for creatures leaving play or going to the graveyard.

Edit to add: Relevant section from the Comprehensive Rules - emphasis mine.

110.5f A token that's phased out, or that's in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 11 Aug 2014, 10:54

A question of my own regarding layers. I think I know how this works, and I'd like to confirm.

Let's say I played Ambush Commander, followed by Conspiracy naming Saprolings, and finally Life and Limb. If I'm correct about how layers are applied:
  • Life and Limb is dependent on Conspiracy, as both apply in the same layer and Conspiracy alters how many permanents are affected by Life and Limb.
  • Ambush Commander is dependent on Life and Limb, as both apply in the same layer and Life and Limb alters how many permanents are affected by Ambush Commander.
  • Dependency overwrites timestamp order.
Therefore, Conspiracy is always applied first, followed by Life and Limb, and finally Ambush Commander gets a turn. This much I'm pretty confident about, but if I'm wrong, please let me know.

The part I'm uncertain about is specifically the interaction between Life and Limb and Ambush Commander's creature type effects. Life and Limb adds a creature type, Ambush Commander sets a creature type. Does this mean that all my creatures would be Elves, with Ambush Commander overwriting the Life and Limb, or would they be Elf Saprolings?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 11 Aug 2014, 16:08

Firstly: if Ambush Commander's effect does apply to a Forest Saproling, it will become a Forest Saproling Elf... according to the rules, that "they are still lands" clause actually just means "in addition to its other types"... it will still keep "Saproling" even though it isn't explicitly mentioned.

So, dependencies...
Ambush Commander can be dependent on Life and Limb, as it can change how many Forests there are.
Ambush Commander can't be dependent on Conspiracy, it doesn't care about creature types.
Conspiracy can be dependent on both Ambush Commander and Life and Limb, as they can change how many creatures there are.
Life and Limb can't be dependent on Ambush Commander, as it doesn't change the types it cares about (since it doesn't actually remove "Saproling").
Life and Limb can be dependent on Conspiracy, as it can change how many Saprolings there are.

So, we have some potential dependency loops, one between Conspiracy and Life and Limb, and another between all three... depending on what's in play.

If you don't control any Forests (that aren't already creatures... I'm looking at you, Dryad Arbor) then Conspiracy isn't dependent on either of the other two, as the number of creatures won't be changing. We still obviously have at least one non-Saproling creature (the Commander itself) so Life and Limb will be dependent on Conspiracy, and Ambush Commander will be dependent on Life and Limb, and so the Ambush Commander (and any other creatures around) will be 1/1 green Land Creature - Forest Saproling Elf.

If you do control non-creature Forests, then we have a bunch of dependency loops, so everything in the loops (which is everything we care about) falls back to timestamp order. All Forests and creatures become 1/1 green Land Creature - Saproling Forest.

Life and Limb is the only one of the three that affects permanents you don't control, and Conspiracy is the only one that affects objects outside the battlefield, so there won't be any dependencies in those areas, and regardless of the order the affects get applied in, the result will be the same.
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