Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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slashx24
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby slashx24 » 09 Sep 2014, 16:14

Phlip is right here. You're pitching a card, not a side of a card, and split cards have two CMCs.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby VectorZero » 10 Sep 2014, 04:40

And if you draw Far//Away with Dark Confidant, you get domed for 5.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Under_Score » 10 Sep 2014, 04:57

Just to clarify, all these rules about split cards apply to all of them, regardless of if they have fuse or not, correct?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 10 Sep 2014, 05:02

Yeah, Fuse cards and other split cards behave identically in every other respect, the only difference is the ability to cast them fused from your hand, and how they behave on the stack if you do so. If you're doing anything other than casting it from your hand, or if you cast just one side, they behave the same as split cards without Fuse.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 10 Sep 2014, 06:31

what is the deference between when an two sided card from innstrad transforms and when a morph card becomes face up or is turned face down
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 10 Sep 2014, 07:21

Transform uses the stack. Morph does not. (Morph is one of 3 "special actions" in Magic that cannot be countered (that I know of) and are faster than the stack. The other two are playing a land and revealing a Conspiracy.)
Also, they're different keywords, and Transform is (usually) a triggered ability while Morph is (almost) always an activated ability.

An Innistrad card cannot be turned "face-up" since they're already "face-up" either way, since they have 2 faces. So things that trigger on or cause the triggering of Transform do not affect Morph creatures, and vice versa.

Like, say you had a face-down Morphed creature and it somehow also became a Human (via some enchantment or other spell). Moonmist would have no effect on it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Prospero101 » 10 Sep 2014, 07:34

Why doesn't Morph use the stack, like every other activated ability? Why does it need to be a special action?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 10 Sep 2014, 08:43

Mainly due to old rules not being quite figured out when being created... They wanted to create a creature that could change, but it took them a while to figure out how that would work. They tried Morph first in Onslaught Block, then Flip in Kamigawa Block, and then Transform in Innistrad Block.

The key problem with Morph is this: The face down morph cards don't have an ability whose effect turns the card face-up. They are 2/2 creatures with no abilities. The Morph ability is on the face-up card, not the face-down card. Instead, the rules allow you to turn them face-up. Because it's in the rules and not in the card itself, it needs to be a special action. Also, there's meta-game stuff about hidden information and what-not, since your opponent isn't supposed to know what's under there, but also needs to know that you're paying the right cost and such to Morph it, so they DO need to know, etc. etc.

Rule 707.2: Face-down spells and face-down permanents have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the spell or permanent to be face down.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 10 Sep 2014, 14:13

There was an article on the mothership that was put up early (supposed to go up tomorrow) and subsequently taken down about the development of Khans. They talked about trying to make morph use the stack, but it gets weird. You'd have to flip the card over, show it has the ability, and then flip it back down until it resolved, which is weird. Or more likely, people would leave it up unless the ability got interrupted, but then you have an incorrect board state. The current way seems to be the least unintuitive.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 10 Sep 2014, 16:31

Until Clever Impersonator hits the field he's always a creature on the stack correct?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 10 Sep 2014, 16:42

Correct. It's not until it enters the battlefield that you choose a thing and it becomes a copy of that thing. On the stack it has the stats printed on the card (you could counter it with Essence Backlash and it would deal 0 damage, for instance).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 10 Sep 2014, 16:46

Not a judge, but I say yes, since it's only a slight variation on Phyrexian Metamorph, and he stays a creature on the stack.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Volafortis » 10 Sep 2014, 19:28

Also, regarding an earlier point about special actions, mana abilities are also a weird thing here that don't use the stack, although, to my understanding, they aren't a special action, just a special classification of ability that doesn't use the stack.

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 10 Sep 2014, 20:09

There are six special actions: Playing a land, turning up a morph, suspending a card, any effect that says "until some time, you may do X, if you do, do Y" but isn't actually an activated ability (eg Channel), any effect that says you "may pay X to ignore this" (eg Leonin Arbiter), and rolling the Planar die in a Planechase game.

I thought activating mana abilities was one of them too, but apparently not, they're their own special thing. Which is to say, you activate them as normal for an activated ability, they just resolve immediately instead of going onto the stack.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 10 Sep 2014, 20:13

So is revealing a conspiracy a special action or not?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 10 Sep 2014, 20:16

I thought revealing a Hidden Agenda was, but I'm not 100% on that.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 10 Sep 2014, 20:18

Yeah, you're right, revealing a Hidden Agenda is number 7. I was looking at an older version of the CR...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 11 Sep 2014, 07:49

what happens if someone clones a meandering towershell and attacks will the clone stays exiled
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 11 Sep 2014, 08:09

Not that I know of? I think it'll re-enter the battlefield tapped and attacking, but you'll get to clone something else if you want? Not a judge, so not sure.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby jkefka » 11 Sep 2014, 08:21

I think Tabak answered that one on tumblr, he said it would come back and the clone could select a new thing to copy. Not a judge but I think I see how that works:

Looking at the ability, the returning to the battlefield is part of the same ability as the exile effect, much like Banishing Light (as opposed to O-ring). That means that when the clone-turtle attacks, the entire ability is put on the stack, and assuming it resolves, the "return to the BF tapped and attacking" will also occur because it's part of the same ability, which the clone must have had in order for it to go on the stack in the first place. When it returns, however, the clone ETBs anew and has non of the properties of the towershell, so it can copy something else...but interestingly it will still come in tapped and attacking. So, attack with clonershell, come back next turn with some other thing if you like.

Presumably if you use it to clone something that cannot legally attack (like a noncreature permanent) it is immediately removed from combat.

New judge question: I do this clonershell trick, and when it re-ETBs I have it clone something with Defender, because it's about sending a message. Does it get removed from combat or does defender only stop something from being declared as an attacker?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Phosphatide » 11 Sep 2014, 08:26

A creature with defender means, in essence, that "it cannot be declared as an attacker." So yes a defender can find its way into the red zone if you can have it attacking without ever having to actually declare it as one, with this ability being one of a few examples.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 11 Sep 2014, 13:11

Just wanted to go back and provide some extra reasoning to this question:
Prospero101 wrote:Why doesn't Morph use the stack, like every other activated ability? Why does it need to be a special action?

I believe the main reason for this is that turning the card face up has a cost that only the front of the card can specify, so if it used the stack you would have to reveal the face-up side, pay the cost, and then give your opponent the chance to respond to a threat before it has the chance to do its thing, which kind of ruins the whole surprise aspect of the mechanic.

The main appeal of Morph, I think, is that your opponent doesn't know when it's going to happen, and they won't know how bad the threat really is until it's already too late.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 11 Sep 2014, 16:12

jkefka wrote:New judge question: I do this clonershell trick, and when it re-ETBs I have it clone something with Defender, because it's about sending a message. Does it get removed from combat or does defender only stop something from being declared as an attacker?

Attacking restrictions only come into play when you're declaring attackers. If you're putting a card into play attacking, you can end up being attacking with a defender, or with a Mogg Flunkies attacking alone, or with a creature on the ground while Stormtide Leviathan in play (though why you'd be copying something other than Stormtide Leviathan is left as an exercise for the reader).

The same happens on blocking, too... one example I've heard is that if you give Brimaz flying (or reach), and have it block a flier, it makes a cat token that is also blocking that flier, even though the token doesn't have flying or reach. I guess the flavour is that Brimaz is in the air already, and can throw a kitty at the opposing flier from there...

Though, as you say, if you copy something that isn't actually a creature, then it can't be attacking, so it's removed from combat immediately.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 11 Sep 2014, 16:51

Another important point (since you mentioned Brimaz) is that the turtle (or turtle clone) won't trigger "When this/a creature attacks" abilities, as it never attacked, it's just attacking. So a Turtle/Clone that clones Brimaz when it comes back won't get a new kitty.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 11 Sep 2014, 18:30

More relevantly in the set - on the turn you declare the Turtle as an attacker and it gets exiled, it will trip Raid, but on the turn the Turtle returns attacking, Raid will not be tripped (unless you attacked with other things, of course).
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