Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
User avatar
Gildan_Bladeborn
Posts: 57
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 23:40
First Video: The Job
Location: The Internet

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Gildan_Bladeborn » 13 Nov 2014, 10:36

AdmiralMemo wrote:If a token gets Undying and doesn't have a +1/+1 counter on it, it still doesn't come back due to SBAs eliminating it once it hits the graveyard, right? I'm assuming the Undying trigger still goes on the stack, but fizzles due to having no target.

Also, if a non-token creature somehow has both Undying and Persist, I'm assuming it just infinitely recycles from the graveyard due to the counters canceling each other out.

If that's true, Undying + Persist = Poor-man's Indestructible, with bonus Dying and ETB triggers if other creatures care about that. I'm thinking some fun could be had with Puppeteer Clique while Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is on the battlefield. Alternatively with Mikaeus, Murderous Redcap becomes the best blocker, with bonus Shocks. Aerie Ouphes just wipes out any opponent's fliers with no draw-back. With a sac outlet, Woodfall Primus becomes a wiper of lands, artifacts, and enchantments.

I'm not a judge but the combination of Persist and Undying does let you keep bringing creatures that have both those traits back again and again forever (until they lose one or the other ability). You could also use persist creatures and Melira, Sylvok Outcast to get the same result, as she just outright stops the -1 counter that Persist would place on the returning creature from ever happening for as long as she's in play, and Cauldron of Souls + Mikaeus will let you bring any non-human back over and over again (albeit not infinitely by itself like Persist creatures + Mikaeus and a sac outlet allow, as you have to tap the Cauldron).

As for tokens, if they have Persist/Undying or there's some other on-board mechanic like Athreos that triggers when they die, those things all still happen, but there's nothing to bring back to the battlefield/hand/etc because once a token leaves the battlefield it stops existing; Persist/Undying trigger when a creature hits the yard, which both token and real creatures do, and then the triggered ability checks whether that creature is still in the yard when it tries to resolve - the regular creature (normally) will be, the token by definition can't exist there so the effect will always fizzle, as you correctly surmised. The requirement for the object to still be in the graveyard as the trigger resolves is also why cards like Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb are not your friends if you're playing the Persist/Undying shenanigans deck, as your opponent could wipe the board and then exile your graveyard with the triggers on the stack.

On a somewhat related note, if an Undying creature with existing +1/+1 counters on it dies in combat to a creature with Wither/Infect (ie, dies to having -1/-1 counters placed on it), it doesn't come back because it's already been sent to the graveyard before the game gets around to canceling out the +1/+1 counters; it if had survived combat then Undying would be good to go, but since the card as it last existed on the battlefield had a +1/+ counter, Undying won't trigger thanks to that intervening if clause.
Last edited by Gildan_Bladeborn on 13 Nov 2014, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 13 Nov 2014, 13:24

Token + Undying:
Undying triggers, but token disappears as a state based action, so nothing happens when it resolves.

Undying + Persist:
Both trigger, one resolves first, putting the creature onto the battlefield with a counter, then the other resolves, and can't find the creature and does nothing. It does not get both.

Next time it dies, the counter will prevent one of the abilities from triggering, and it will come back with the other one. It will swap from +1 to -1 to +1, etc, each time it dies.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
ElFuzzy
Posts: 2124
Joined: 09 Mar 2013, 07:12
First Video: Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Location: The Fields of Justice

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 20 Nov 2014, 09:57

Can I cascade into a bestow and cast it as a bestow?
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7337
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 20 Nov 2014, 11:11

Not a judge: You can certainly cascade into it, but I don't believe you can cast it as a bestow, since it's an alternative cost, rather than the original cost.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 20 Nov 2014, 17:14

Memo is correct. "Cast without paying its mana cost" and Bestow are both alternate costs, and you can only choose a single alternate cost when casting a spell.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7337
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 20 Nov 2014, 19:21

OK, can you choose one or the other cost in this situation? Can you Cascade into the card and then choose to pay the Bestow cost instead of the free cost?
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 20 Nov 2014, 20:43

No, because Cascade is only giving you permission to cast it without paying its mana cost. You don't have permission to cast it for its primary cost, or any other alternates.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
Gildan_Bladeborn
Posts: 57
Joined: 05 Oct 2014, 23:40
First Video: The Job
Location: The Internet

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Gildan_Bladeborn » 22 Nov 2014, 13:38

When an ability lets you cast something without paying the mana cost, unless you could also cast that spell without using the ability (such as having Omniscience in play and deciding not to cast an X-spell you have in your hand for free, as Omniscience is a "may" ability), you are basically locked out of paying alternate casting costs. Cascade makes you exile cards until you hit a non-land card with a lower CMC, so unless you have some other way of casting cards from exile that doesn't care how those cards got into exile (preeeetty sure that doesn't exist), you either decide to cast it using the Cascade ability or you opt not to.

Important note: Casting spells without paying their mana-costs (whether via Cascade or the myriad other ways that might happen) doesn't let you pay alternate costs when you cast those spells, but it does not stop you from being able to pay additional costs. So while you can't Overload or Bestow spells you're casting for free via Cascade, if the spell you hit has Kicker/Multikicker or Conspire you can pay those costs if you want. Likewise, if the spell has an additional cost required to cast it at all (sacrificing a creature, discarding cards, paying an amount of life, etc), you still have to do that to resolve the spell, even if you're casting it without paying the mana cost.
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 22 Nov 2014, 15:48

Gildan_Bladeborn wrote:unless you have some other way of casting cards from exile that doesn't care how those cards got into exile (preeeetty sure that doesn't exist), you either decide to cast it using the Cascade ability or you opt not to.

Well, there's Misthollow Griffin, but even then, Cascade has you exile the cards and then put them back in your library as part of the resolution of the same ability. You can only cast the cascaded spell during the resolution of the ability because the ability specifically tells you to... you don't get priority, so you don't get the opportunity to cast anything else before the cards are gone.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
Utilitarian
Posts: 1211
Joined: 05 Nov 2012, 00:16
First Video: Checkpoint 01
Location: Burnaby, BC

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 23 Nov 2014, 22:47

If something cares about whether I "control an X" where x is "zombie" or "goblin" or "human" etc, and I cast a creature spell of that type, when is the previously mentioned condition fulfilled, as soon as the spell is on the stack (assuming I control it) or only once the creature is in play?

my instinct is that it needs to resolve but someone has recently told me otherwise and I am unsure.
Look at the cards. LOOK AT THE CARDS!
The Saga of Ballchannels: My Dwarf Fortress Let's Play
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 24 Nov 2014, 01:18

It will need to resolve. When something says "control an X" they actually mean "control an X permanent", and a creature spell is not a creature permanent.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Utilitarian
Posts: 1211
Joined: 05 Nov 2012, 00:16
First Video: Checkpoint 01
Location: Burnaby, BC

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 24 Nov 2014, 15:30

korvys wrote:It will need to resolve. When something says "control an X" they actually mean "control an X permanent", and a creature spell is not a creature permanent.

Thanks Korv. Can I bother you for the Complete Rules reference? I'm being called out on this. -_-
Look at the cards. LOOK AT THE CARDS!
The Saga of Ballchannels: My Dwarf Fortress Let's Play
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby JackSlack » 24 Nov 2014, 15:35

Also, I think I asked this before, but...

So, if someone has Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm both out, what happens when someone casts something from their hand?

What about if they're not controlled by the same person?
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 24 Nov 2014, 15:53

Utilitarian:

Code: Select all

109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.

In this case the description is using a creature type, which is a subtype.

---

JackSlack:
The answer to both of those questions is that all of the other players move to another table and start playing a new game without you. Also, all judges in the room shudder for no apparent reason.

Before that, though, some actual stuff happens.

If the Storm resolves first, you do that part, and then the Pool fails, because it only works "If that player does, ...".

If the pool resolves first, you do that part, then do the Storm anyway, cause the Storm doesn't care if you actually exile the card.

Which resolves first depends on who controls them. If they're both controlled by the same player, that player gets to decide. If they are controlled by different players, the one controlled by the active player, or one closest to the active player's left, triggers first, and resolves last.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Utilitarian
Posts: 1211
Joined: 05 Nov 2012, 00:16
First Video: Checkpoint 01
Location: Burnaby, BC

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 24 Nov 2014, 16:12

Thanks Korv. You da best Judge ^_^
Look at the cards. LOOK AT THE CARDS!
The Saga of Ballchannels: My Dwarf Fortress Let's Play
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby JackSlack » 24 Nov 2014, 18:24

I deeply appreciate any judge answer that is, "The answer is that I learn to despise you a little bit more."

Thanks, Korvys!
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 24 Nov 2014, 21:19

Judges will you tell you they hate you for things like that, but really, we love it. I once figured out how to (theoretically) get a token onto the stack. Purely to see if I could. You can't do it anymore, unfortunately.

The old way to get judges to hate you was to ask them about Licids. I think the rules are cleaner now, though. They're kinda not much different to Bestowed creatures.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 24 Nov 2014, 23:50

Banding or the Humility/Opalescence combo will still provoke a groan or two though, or at least they did when I was judging a lot.
User avatar
ElFuzzy
Posts: 2124
Joined: 09 Mar 2013, 07:12
First Video: Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Location: The Fields of Justice

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 25 Nov 2014, 07:46

Okay so I keep running into this at school. A friend of mine is confused on whether or not Enchantment Auras target. He says someone told him that because something like "Enchant Creature" doesn't explicitly say target then it can get through hexproof.

However I thought that things like Enchant Creature or Enchant Land etc. are just shorthand versions of Enchant Target Creature.

Similar scenario; can I swerve someone else's Market Festival to my land?
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 25 Nov 2014, 12:13

Auras do target. They don't explicitly use the word "target" on the card, but they do in the rules about the Aura subtype. There are other things like this too: Equip, Modular, Soulshift, Provoke, Haunt, Reinforce and Scavenge all target, even though it doesn't actually say "target" on the card (outside of potentially in reminder text) but it does say "target" in the CR description of what those abilities mean.

Your friend may be getting confused with a different ruling, for when you're putting auras directly onto the battlefield, rather than casting them... because then you skip the whole "targeting things" step. The aura spell on the stack targets the creature (or whatever) but the aura permanent on the battlefield enchants the creature (again, or whatever). If the aura is being put directly onto the battlefield, it's never targeting anything, so you are able to attach it to eg things with hexproof or shroud (but still not things with protection, because that prevents enchanting as well as preventing targeting).
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
ElFuzzy
Posts: 2124
Joined: 09 Mar 2013, 07:12
First Video: Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Location: The Fields of Justice

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 26 Nov 2014, 06:28

If I have Skybind and Prophet of Kruphix on the table then play a fiend hunter, flash out a hopeful eidolon in response to the fiend hunters first ability he then permanently exiles said target. I know that much.

However, what happens when he comes back at EoT and I flash out another thing in response to the first trigger and bounce him again. Does he come back at my opponents EoT?
User avatar
Phosphatide
Posts: 229
Joined: 07 Feb 2013, 13:14
First Video: Three PS3s
Location: Bay Area, California
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Phosphatide » 26 Nov 2014, 11:50

That is correct. You can compare it to "until end of turn" effects where those end at the cleanup step instead.
User avatar
tamaness
Posts: 2673
Joined: 17 Oct 2008, 03:44
First Video: LRReview: Desert Bus
Location: Stuck between a rock and a hard place
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby tamaness » 28 Nov 2014, 01:54

korvys wrote:JackSlack:
The answer to both of those questions is that all of the other players move to another table and start playing a new game without you. Also, all judges in the room shudder for no apparent reason.

Before that, though, some actual stuff happens.

If the Storm resolves first, you do that part, and then the Pool fails, because it only works "If that player does, ...".

If the pool resolves first, you do that part, then do the Storm anyway, cause the Storm doesn't care if you actually exile the card.

Which resolves first depends on who controls them. If they're both controlled by the same player, that player gets to decide. If they are controlled by different players, the one controlled by the active player, or one closest to the active player's left, triggers first, and resolves last.


If you control both, you can stack your triggers however you want to. Triggers don't care about timestamp order. If you and another player control the Pool and the Storm, then the triggers stack in AP/NAP order, then resolve as normal. (603.3b, 101.4)
User avatar
tamaness
Posts: 2673
Joined: 17 Oct 2008, 03:44
First Video: LRReview: Desert Bus
Location: Stuck between a rock and a hard place
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby tamaness » 28 Nov 2014, 01:57

Oh, I'm a certified L1 judge now (yay!).
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 28 Nov 2014, 03:36

tamaness wrote:If you control both, you can stack your triggers however you want to. Triggers don't care about timestamp order. If you and another player control the Pool and the Storm, then the triggers stack in AP/NAP order, then resolve as normal. (603.3b, 101.4)

Did I miss something in my explanation?
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io

Return to “Magic: The Gathering”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests