Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Kapol
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 23 Dec 2014, 14:29

No. Narset's ability specifies non-creature spell. While in any other zone than the battlefield (or on the stack, I believe), bestow creatures are also creatures.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby steric hindrance » 23 Dec 2014, 14:50

No, because whenever an effect would allow you to cast something "without paying its mana cost," you can't pay additional costs (like Kicker) or alternate costs (like Bestow).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 23 Dec 2014, 15:02

Ok, a few things.

I said Unflinching Courage on your opponent's creature would save you. It won't cause it gives the creature lifelink, which gives the controller of the creature the life, not you. The point I was trying to make was that if you had a 20/20 creature with lifelink, and they attacked you with a 40/40 creature with trample, you would gain the life at the same time as you lost the life, and wouldn't die.

Combat damage and lifelink happen at the same time, and everything gets totalled up before checking if you're dead.

LokiTheLiar wrote:I got a little bit confused in this whole damage discussion. I don't understand the part when Korvys says that Damage Assignment goes on the stack. You are saying this assuming their playing during Invasion block, right?
Right. This was the old way of doing things, before M10. Now, you don't assign damage until you are dealing it.

RadioshackRaider wrote:Does Narset allow you to cast bestow creatures as auras?
No, as Kapol said, it's not a non-creature. Also, as steric hindrance said, you can't choose to pay the alternative cost that would make it an Aura.

However
steric hindrance wrote:No, because whenever an effect would allow you to cast something "without paying its mana cost," you can't pay additional costs (like Kicker) or alternate costs (like Bestow).
This is incorrect, you CAN pay additional costs like Kicker, or Strive.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby RadioshackRaider » 23 Dec 2014, 16:49

A similar question: Can I use Omniscience to pay costs like Kicker and flashback?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 23 Dec 2014, 17:13

Nope and nope respectively, for different reasons. In non-technical terms:

To play a spell, first you decide what options you're choosing for it (targets, modes, alternative costs, etc), then you figure out how much it's going to cost you to cast it like that, then you pay for it.

Choosing to replace the mana cost with "I'm super smart so I don't have to pay for anything", does not also let you pay for additional costs (Kicker), nor does it let you flashback a spell.

Flashback and Bestow are alternative costs, but they also let you do special things if you choose to use them.

If you have Omniscience out, your options for a bestow card in your hand are:
- Normal Cost: Pay the full price for it as a creature
- Alternate Cost: Pay nothing for the creature because you're so smart
- Alternate Cost: Pay the bestow cost and have a creature wear it as pants.

For a flashback card in your graveyard, your options are:

- Normal Cost: Oops, can't play spells from your graveyard under normal rules.
- Alternative Cost: Omniscience doesn't let you play them from your graveyard either.
- Alternative Cost: Pay the flashback cost, which changes the rules and lets you cast it from your yard.

Once you've decided what cost you're using, you can also decide if you're going to Kick or Strive the spell. Then, you total up the costs, and have to pay for it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 23 Dec 2014, 17:13

No, Omniscience specifies from hand and kickers may be paid in addition too. So a kicked card would be free CMC + kicker in total mana.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 23 Dec 2014, 17:14

You can't flashback spells with Omniscience for free because it is specified on the card "you man cast nonland cards FROM YOU HAND without paying their mana costs"

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 23 Dec 2014, 17:23

Oh yes, also that. Sometimes I forget there are words on cards, and not just rules.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby RadioshackRaider » 24 Dec 2014, 09:10

Okay, another stupid question: Ho do X spells and casting things for free work?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 24 Dec 2014, 09:15

X defaults to 0
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby RadioshackRaider » 24 Dec 2014, 09:35

Right. I thought so, but I wasn't sure.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 25 Dec 2014, 17:56

if i am using scion of the ur-dragon as my commander and make it in to a tyrant's familiar will its lieutenant ability work
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 25 Dec 2014, 18:11

Yep.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 28 Dec 2014, 19:58

OK, so Pact of Negation (or, in fact, any of the other Future Sight Pacts) has to resolve for the "pay on upkeep or lose" trigger to fire, correct? If it gets countered, you don't have to pay during upkeep?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 28 Dec 2014, 20:06

Correct. Setting up that delayed trigger is an effect of the spell... if the spell is countered, it doesn't happen.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby RadioshackRaider » 29 Dec 2014, 16:05

Another question: How do X spells and medallions work?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 29 Dec 2014, 16:30

You choose everything about a spell (targets, modes, X, etc) then you work out what the cost will be, including things that increase or decrease the cost of the spell, and then you pay for it.

Less technical answer: You get 1 more X for the same amount of mana, or pay 1 less for the same X.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Gildan_Bladeborn » 31 Dec 2014, 14:57

So the new Manifest ability in Fate Reforged seems fun, the shell game shenanigans appeal to me, and it's a mechanic that's easy enough to grok in the context of the block, but it got me thinking: this is the first time Magic has ever had a "put any card from your library onto the battlefield face down" effect, and I play eternal formats - what would happen when the card being manifested is a double-faced card?

Manifest tries to put a card onto the battlefield face-down, but double-face cards can never actually be face down (and will ignore all effects that try to turn them face down) and always enter the battlefield with the "regular" face up unless an effect specifies that they enter transformed (which doesn't currently exist)... would Manifest still work and just ignore the face-down bit of the instructions, or would the effect fizzle because it can't actually do what it's trying to?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 31 Dec 2014, 16:18

I did a little Google search on the matter, and followed a link in a thread to this piece, which is supposedly from the leading Rules Manager, who says that it would enter face down and you'd use the front face to determine whether or not you can pay to turn it face up.

I assume that this functions because when the card is in your library, it's already face-down. It's either sleeved or replaced by a checklist card or possibly both, so you can't immediately tell what it is when it goes directly from the library to the battlefield. It kind of makes sense, since my understanding of Manifest's resolution and the rules on face-down cards is that you can't look at the card to see what it is until after it's already on the battlefield.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 01 Jan 2015, 13:14

There was a post on my local facebook page asking something similar, with our local judge saying the effect would fizzle due to previous rules. But I feel that's going to change (as has been mentioned) with the Manifest mechanic. Mostly because otherwise there'd be a very weird interaction.

Manifest doesn't allow you to actually look at the cards you're manifesting until after they've become manifest (based on the wording at least, as we don't have official rulings that I know of). Which leads to the issue of manifesting a double-faced card and not actually knowing it until after the spell resolves. At which point the spell will have caused an illegal action to happen and cause a judge call and backtrack. It also causes the issue that it gives the opponent information based on the fact the manifest ability would fizzle, even if they didn't know exactly what card caused it.

Because of that, I'd be very surprised if they didn't update the rule to accommodate Manifest working with flip cards.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 01 Jan 2015, 14:43

While I'm sure the rules will be explicit about it, this is probably one of those weird situations that works more intuitively the less rules you know.

Based on that comment by Matt Tabak, you'd put the card into play face down. When you think about it, that's not really a problem. If you're playing with opaque sleeves, you just have the card physically face down, and if you're not, you're playing with the check-list cards, and they can be face-down as well. This is already the case when you exile a double-faced card facedown.

From the rules perspective, the other side of a double-faced card isn't there. The card is what it says it is on the front, the other side doesn't exist, unless the card is told to transform. That the card has more info on the back doesn't mean anything in the game. It's just the best place to put that for paper magic.

Being "face down" or "face up" also just an abstract property. Again, it has an analogue in the real world of being physically up or down, but those terms under the MTG rules and those terms in the real world are only mostly the same.

So there's nothing to prevent a double-faced card from being face down, but the rules do explicitly prevent them from being turned face down in play (and Tabak said that would still be true).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 02 Jan 2015, 02:02

Stupid mobile phone network dodginess double posting...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 02 Jan 2015, 02:03

A lot of the specific interactions with manifest I'd want to wait for the FAQ/CR to come out before giving definite answers.

I do know that Tabak has said if you Break Open an Instant/Sorcery, then you'll reveal it then leave it face down. Which is good, otherwise that would be... interesting.

Myself, I'm curious for everyone's over/under on the number of times at the first major limited GP/PT for FRF, how many judge calls there are for "my opponent revealed this non-morph at the end of the game, but we can't remember whether it was cast face down or manifested..." or similar nonsense...

I guess that's why they made the reminder cards in the token slot, so you can remember which is which...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 02 Jan 2015, 23:52

So, a couple questions from chaos sealed tonight:

-If someone Oppressive Rays my morph, do I need to pay the extra 3 to unmorph it?
-Is morphing considered an alternate cost? I ask because of Daxos exiling a morph creature and the question if the morph can be played AS a morph.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 03 Jan 2015, 00:28

I'm not a judge, so it's hard to say.

For #1, I'd say yes, but I'm not sure. The Morph cost is an activated ability, but it's specifically not an activated ability of the "Morph" creature, because Morphs have no abilities intrinsically. I think it depends on if the face-down part of the card is considered part of the "Enchanted Creature"... to which I would say yes, but as mentioned... Not a judge.

For #2, I'd say it is an alternative cost, based on the ruling on any Morph:

The face-down spell has no mana cost and has a converted mana cost of 0. When you cast a face-down spell, put it on the stack face down so no other player knows what it is, and pay {3}. This is an alternative cost.

Because it's an alternative cost, I think you could cast it as a Morph, because the ruling on Daxos is:

You must pay all costs to cast the exiled card. You may pay alternative or additional costs. If the card has any mandatory additional costs, you must pay those.
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