Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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SilPho
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 03 Jan 2015, 02:34

When a creature is face down, turning it face-up is a special action, which doesn't use the stack. This means it's not an activated ability so Oppressive Rays won't affect it.

Technical point: Special actions not using the stack means they do not go through the same steps as casting a spell or activating an ability, so there's no step in which the total cost is modified by effects like Oppressive Rays. It's also why you can't counter turning cards face-up with Stifle, because it's never on the stack and your opponent can't respond to it.

These points are probably applicable to the Manifest mechanic as well, but best to wait for the FAQ to be sure.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 03 Jan 2015, 14:48

Alright, I figured those were the cases. But given that they both benefited me and I wasn't sure, I preferred to ask and be clear. It was mostly the fact I knew you couldn't Stifle a morph that tipped me off.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby VectorZero » 04 Jan 2015, 00:38

If I cast chain of Vapor with a SDT in play, targeting my opponent's permanent, then they sac a land and chain back targeting my top, can I both continue the chain and flip my top, and if so in which order do I declare those?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 04 Jan 2015, 02:00

Short Answer: You can do one or the other. Not both.

Long Answer: The chain cycle, including Chain of Vapor create copies of themselves, which will be placed onto the stack when the previous one resolves (if a land is sacrificed, obviously).

If there is a copy (or an original version) on the stack aimed at your Divining Top then in order to use the top you will have to activate it before the copied Chain starts resolving. Then, since the top is no longer on the battlefield, the chain won't have a legal target when it resolves, so it gets countered and you can't sac a land.

And likewise if you start to let the chain resolve it will bounce the top and ask for a sacrifice before you can do anything else.

You are always able to use top to view the top 3 cards, but you need to do that before the chain resolves.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 04 Jan 2015, 11:47

if i have a frontier siege choosing dragon and an abzan falconer and cast a armament corps and put a counter on it dose it trigger frontier siege
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 04 Jan 2015, 12:43

No. The abilities of Armament Corps and Frontier Siege would both trigger at the same time, but at that point, the Corps don't meet the requirements (having flying), so the Siege does not trigger. It doesn't matter that it later gets flying.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 04 Jan 2015, 14:18

if one player has a soulflayer with an ability and someone clones it will the clone have abilities
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 04 Jan 2015, 14:39

The clone will have the abilities printed on the card it's copying. I.E. it will have "If a creature card with flying was exiled with Soulflayer's delve ability, Soulflayer has flyng. The same is true for first strike, double strike, deathtouch, haste, hexproof, indestructible, lifelink, reach, trample, and vigilance."

This one is actually a little tricky, and I'd wait for the FAQ, but your copy will probably have the abilities of the cards you delved to pay for the clone (probably none, unless they print a delve clone).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 04 Jan 2015, 16:43

korvys wrote:This one is actually a little tricky, and I'd wait for the FAQ, but your copy will probably have the abilities of the cards you delved to pay for the clone (probably none, unless they print a delve clone).

Doesn't necessarily need to be a delve clone... say, I cast a Soulflayer (by whatever means), then cast a Hooting Mandrils (exiling a flyer with Delve) then Mirrorweave the Soulflayer... would the Mandrils (now a copy of Soulflayer) get flying?

I could see it going either way... but my guess is it would be a linked ability... the flyer wasn't exiled with the copied Soulflayer's Delve ability, it was exiled with the original Mandrils's Delve ability, so it wouldn't count, and the Mandril-flayer would be stuck on the ground.

But that's just speculation... we'd need to wait for the CR update to know for sure (or maybe the FAQ, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FAQ doesn't cover this particular edge case).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 04 Jan 2015, 19:00

I don't think it's a linked ability, as it's not templated any different.

A card's own name on it means "This card".

So the copy would say "If a creature card with flying was exiled with [This Card's (whose name is probably Soulflayer, but let's not get ahead of ourselves)] delve ability, [This Card] has flyng. The same is true for first strike, double strike, deathtouch, haste, hexproof, indestructible, lifelink, reach, trample, and vigilance."

In which case it would have flying. Maybe.

I might go ask Tabak, cause that's an interesting interaction.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 04 Jan 2015, 20:12

korvys wrote:A card's own name on it means "This card".

So the copy would say "If a creature card with flying was exiled with [This Card's (whose name is probably Soulflayer, but let's not get ahead of ourselves)] delve ability, [This Card] has flyng. The same is true for first strike, double strike, deathtouch, haste, hexproof, indestructible, lifelink, reach, trample, and vigilance."

Sure, but the same is true of other linked abilities... Like, if you have a creature that has an ability that exiles some cards, and then make it a copy of Bane Alley Broker (eg with Mirrorweave, again) then you can't activate its ability to return those exiled cards to your hand... even though it's just "Return a card exiled with [this] to its owner's hand"... because that ability is linked to the "Draw a card, exile a card from your hand" ability, and refers only to cards exiled with that specific ability.

Like... even if you have two Bane Alley Brokers, and draw-exile a couple of times with the first one, then Mirrorweave the second one... then you can't activate the first one to return one of those exiled cards until the Mirrorweave wears off (and any cards you exile with it while it's mirrorweaved, you won't be able to return once it does wear off) because they're different instances of the ability, and are only linked to their respective exile abilities.

Now, Delve doesn't seem to fit into any of the categories in the CR for linked abilities (unless Delve counts as a replacement effect, which it might, I'm not sure... the rules for Delve use the wording "rather than", not the magic word "instead"... but if it is, it would fall under 607.2b) but that could easily change with the CR update for FRF...

If you do ask Tabak, let me know what he says! I'm very curious now.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 04 Jan 2015, 20:48

Well I sent it to his tumblr anyway. Hopefully he gets in a question answering mood some time soon.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Root potato » 05 Jan 2015, 12:12

JUDGE! Rule check: if torrent elemental is exiled by an effect that exiles it upside down, can you still activate the ability? If not is there a way that you could? Thank you
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 05 Jan 2015, 14:20

I can't think of a way that you'd be able to activate the abilities of any card if it's face down, exiled or otherwise (Morph doesn't count). If the effect that exiled the elemental face down doesn't turn it face up then I don't think anything else will.

Basically, if it's face down, you can't activate it.

Regarding the delve question - Everything I know about the rules as they stand now says that the copied card will not have the abilities that the original does because the cloned version's linked ability has no cards for reference. I think it's unlikely this will change when the FAQ comes out, but who knows :D
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 05 Jan 2015, 15:55

SliPho, the issue is whether it is a linked ability. If so, then yes, as per Bane Alley Broker, it will have no cards to reference. If not, then can a creature remember things about the way it was cast? Obviously Soulflayer can.

It's a pretty obscure corner case though.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Re'ozul » 06 Jan 2015, 06:28

Question regarding the spoiled Lightning Shrieker.

Does the effect still happen if Lightning Shrieker is in the graveyard at the end of turn?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 06 Jan 2015, 12:58

No. Triggered abilities only trigger when the card is in play, unless explicitly stated otherwise, or if they wouldn't make sense otherwise.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby tamaness » 11 Jan 2015, 08:34

korvys wrote:SliPho, the issue is whether it is a linked ability. If so, then yes, as per Bane Alley Broker, it will have no cards to reference. If not, then can a creature remember things about the way it was cast? Obviously Soulflayer can.

It's a pretty obscure corner case though.


I'm pretty sure they're linked abilities. The second ability on Soulflayer references the first ability explicitly. I might send this corner case to Judgecast or Charlotte Sable once the set has been released and the FAQ is out.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 11 Jan 2015, 15:05

On reflection, I think you're right. But now I can't give up until I know for sure...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Quixotep » 14 Jan 2015, 15:04

Hey, so I was playing a game of commander and I had a Kruphix, the god, out with enough devotion to make it a creature. My mono red opponent cast a spliced grab the reins, essentially casting act of treason and fling at the same time. Because my opponent does not have enough devotion to have Kruphix be a creature, can they still sacrifice it? My instinct is no, but being the first time with a new play group I didn't press it.

Also, hello, first post in the forum, long time runner but not the most message boardy, but this interaction has been bugging me and this seemed a good place to look for answers since I could find none else-where.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 14 Jan 2015, 15:17

So an interesting thing about Grab the Reins's second mode: unlike Fling, where you sacrifice the creature as your pay the costs to cast the spell, you don't sacrifice the creature until the spell resolves. Which means you don't have to choose the creature to sacrifice until you get to the point in the text where it says to.

When you cast an entwine spell, it sort of becomes a new spell with both parts on it. You follow the instructions in order. In this case, when you cast it, you will choose your targets (one target to steal, and one to do damage to), but not the creature you will sacrifice. Then you pay the costs, put it on the stack. Assuming it resolves, we go through it step by step.

First, you steal the creature (in this case, Kruphix). Then you choose a creature you control to sacrifice. Kruphix's ability is a static ability that is always working. This means that as soon as you control them, if you don't have enough devotion, it isn't a creature anymore, and not a valid choice. You will have to choose another creature you control (if you have one) to sacrifice.

Your instincts are correct, your opponent can't sacrifice it. Depending on how competitive your group is, you can let them cast the spell, and then point out that they have to choose another creature when it resolves, but that's up to you.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Quixotep » 14 Jan 2015, 15:29

Thank you, I knew that grab the reins was a little different in the wording than fling (i knew it wasn't an additional cost for one) and that it seemed like a delayed effect that would trigger, but to me playing magic, especially commander, is more about the funness of it, but I also don't mind getting a little spikey back in someone's face if they're being a little jerkish, or just playing what I think of as un-fun cards (armageddon, counter spells, the black infect dragon, etc.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 16 Jan 2015, 10:51

JUDGE! If I fascinate and draw 20 and I have 18 cards in my library and my opponent has 15 cards in their library what happens?

If I mill out the whole table simulaneously I still win right? Each opponent would lose to their draw trigger and as long as I don't get one after casting Fascination I don't lose.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 16 Jan 2015, 12:50

If you choose to draw, everyone losses at the same time, and it's a draw.

If you choose to mill, each player would lose the next time they try to draw a card.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Jan 2015, 12:54

Edit: Doh, I should probably read both parts of cards. Let me try that again...

If you choose the draw cards mode: The game ends in a draw. The resolution of Fascination makes everyone attempt to draw a card from an empty library so everyone will lose the game the next time state-based actions are checked, yourself included. (State-based actions are not like the stack and don't resolve one at a time, it all happens at once)

If you choose the mill option: Everyone will have an empty library but that doesn't cause anyone to lose the game just yet. After you pass the turn then yes, you'll probably win because everyone else will attempt to draw at the start of their turn.

(Thanks to Kapol for reading the card better than I did)
Last edited by SilPho on 17 Jan 2015, 01:57, edited 1 time in total.

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