Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 07 Jun 2016, 19:28

Correct, and also, using the Kraj's Loyalty ability won't meet the conditions for the first ability either.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby cuddlyblade » 17 Jun 2016, 02:23

Can you process a card your opponent has suspended?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jun 2016, 04:17

Yes. You can process any card currently in exile, for any reason, that is owned by your opponent. If you're quick, you can even exile a madness card that has been discarded before they can play it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby fantôme » 19 Jun 2016, 03:27

If I Ensoul Artifact an equipment, then make a copy of the creature with something like Infinite Reflection, I believe I'm correct in saying that auras don't get copied with clone effects - so would I just get copies of the equipment? Or would the copy effect fizzle because the entity it is making is no longer a creature?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 19 Jun 2016, 04:00

You get a bunch of equipment, yes.

It's not super intuitive for Infinite reflection, like it might be for say, Cackling Counterpart, which make a token copy, or even clone, which just becomes a copy, because for Infinite Reflection, it's a continuous effect turning your creatures into copies, but then they're not creatures anymore. Luckily, once you start applying it, it doesn't check again.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby fantôme » 19 Jun 2016, 04:07

Awesome, thank you.

Now I just have to figure out how many Blade of Selves' is too many...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 29 Jun 2016, 21:30

JUDGE! Is there a way to transfer ownership/control of a spell on stack?

For example. Cast some bait card, use Pact of Negation, then give it to your opponent who is not in blue.

I can't think of anything, but I don't know if I"m missing something obvious. Things like swerve won't help and that's the closest effect I could think of.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 29 Jun 2016, 21:59

I am not aware of any way to do that. The rules don't prevent it in any way, they just haven't printed anything to do it.

The closest thing to what you want to do would be Hive Mind, which makes each opponent put a copy that they control on the stack. If you cast a pact on your turn, then they'll have to pay before you do. It's one of the win conditions in the Amulet Bloom deck (now sans Bloom), in modern.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 30 Jun 2016, 16:26

Yeah, there is a way to gain control of a spell, but not to give it away, at least as far as I can find in my searching.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SixFootTurkey » 01 Jul 2016, 00:29

That is correct; once a creature becomes blocked, it remains blocked until it is removed from combat (even if no blockers remain). A blocked creature with no creatures blocking it will not be able to assign any damage. (If it has trample it _must_ assign all damage to the defending player - no choice here.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 08 Jul 2016, 17:45

I assume you are allowed to sac a token for an Emerge cost, and then just pay the whole cost since there's no CMC.

Also, how does Geist-Fueled Scarecrow work with Emerge if you sacrifice it? I'm thinking it still boosts the Emerge cost by 1, since the sac is part of the cost.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 08 Jul 2016, 19:49

AdmiralMemo wrote:I assume you are allowed to sac a token for an Emerge cost, and then just pay the whole cost since there's no CMC.

Yes. Unless the token is a copy of something that had a mana cost, in which case it'll have the same CMC as whatever it was copying.

Speaking of sacrificing creatures that don't have a mana cost... I imagine Emerge was the main reason they made that change to DFCs that when the back face is up, it still has the same CMC as the front face, instead of 0.

AdmiralMemo wrote:Also, how does Geist-Fueled Scarecrow work with Emerge if you sacrifice it? I'm thinking it still boosts the Emerge cost by 1, since the sac is part of the cost.

According to the release notes, the order things happen with emerge is that you choose which creature to sac at the start (so it knows how much to reduce the cost by) but you don't actually sac it until you're paying costs for the spell.

So, the order is:
  • I want to cast this (say) Wretched Gryff for its emerge cost, sacrificing Geist-Fueled Scarecrow.
  • The emerge cost is 5U, plus 1 from the Scarecrow's ability, minus 4 from the Scarecrow's CMC... the final cost for casting this spell is "2U, sacrifice Geist-Fueled Scarecrow".
  • Now you actually pay the costs, the Scarecrow goes away, but its ability has already applied.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jul 2016, 14:00

Am I correct in thinking that, if a trigger is missed at Regular REL, it should be added to the stack if it's not disruptive, assuming it isn't a may?

I had a match during prerelease where I forgot my Gavony Unhollowed trigger until after an ability resolved. Namely, I sacrified three zombies for Voldarin Pariah, and realized after making an opponent sacrifice three creatures that I missed the trigger. Before anything else happened, I realized that and called a judge. The judge ruled it was a missed trigger and was just gone. This seems incorrect to me. Especially after watching the preprerelease.

This isn't the first time this has happened either. I think I posted about when I missed a drain trigger off of Drana's Emissary, realized it during the first main phase of the same turn, and had it ruled as a missed trigger. Again, during a prerelease.

I checked out the Judging at Regular document, which reads:

A player forgets a triggered ability (one that uses the words “when,” “whenever,” or “at” usually at the start of the ability's text). These abilities are considered missed if the player did not acknowledge them in any way at the point that it required choices or had a visible in-game effect. If the ability includes the word “may,” assume the player chose not to perform it. Otherwise, add it to the stack now unless it happened so long ago that you think it would be very disruptive to the game - don’t add the ability to the stack if significant decisions having been made based on the effect not happening! Unlike other game rule errors (which must be pointed out), players are never required to point out their opponent’s missed triggered abilities, although they may do so.


The judge interpreted the 'otherwise' as meaning that, if the first two things don't apply, do that. Rather than do that is the may clause doesn't apply. I read it the other way around.

So am I wrong? And if I'm not, is there any judgeblog post or other place I can lead him to help prove I'm correct? He seems to think missed triggers are handled the same no matter the REL, which seems incorrect to me. And if it's affected me twice and I only go there for prerelease, I have to wonder how many times it's affected other players.

As well, if there is a way to prove I'm correct, is there any official way to contact judges? I live over an hour away, so it's not like it'd be easy for me to just drive over there. And it's not something I think I'll remember for next time. Would reporting him if there's a way to do so be correct? It doesn't seem like it. I don't think he's doing it intentionally, and he's always been a good judge and a great guy from my interactions with him. He shouldn't get in trouble for mistaken understanding.

I'm just not sure if he's correct or I am. And if I am, I don't know what to do about it. Any advice from other judges? I feel like this is something very important to correct if it's wrong. This seems to be one of the few places in the area with a level 2 judge, so I think a lot of people trying to be level 1s go there to learn. And if I'm wrong, I want to know. I sometimes help judge events and that's important info.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jul 2016, 17:34

You are correct, unless decisions have been made that would have been changed by it, or it's been a long time, you'd just add it to the stack now.

This is only true at Regular REL though. Possibly the judge is thinking of the Comp REL rules, where it would be up to the opponent to decide if the trigger happens or not (if they did, you'd add it to the stack now).

Depending on your technical limitations (phones, computers, etc) there is a live judge chat you could ask in. You'll usually get a response within a minute or 2.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jul 2016, 17:47

That's the thing. The judge in question seemed confident that there's no difference between RELs in terms of how a missed trigger is handled. Even after showing him the judging at Regular REL document, specifically the passage I quoted, he still thought that having the trigger not happen was the correct way to handle it. Because of that, I'm not sure the judge chat would convince him otherwise. But I'll just have to remembering it try next time I'm there if there's no better way.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jul 2016, 18:09

I mean... he's sort of right. There is only one set of rules. The JAR is basically a thing that says "You should break the rules a bit at Regular, because it makes things run smoother and everyone will have more fun".
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jul 2016, 18:15

Ah, alright. I didn't quite realize that. So I suppose the question is, if that's the case, is either method acceptable? While that solution may not be the recommended one for Regular are both acceptable? I'm just wondering if it might be an active choice rather than not knowing what the JAR says.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jul 2016, 19:36

The JAR is a bunch of recommendations. If they're choosing not to follow them, you could ask them why, and suggest that it might be a good idea. On the other hand, if they're just misinterpreting the rules (as you seem to be saying above), then clarifying with another judge might help.

If they know about the JAR and don't want to use it though, there's not much you can do. You could give feedback to the TO (probably the store owner/manager) or the judge's Regional Coordinator (which I would definitely do if you think they're applying the rules inconsistently, etc), but otherwise it's their event.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jul 2016, 19:48

Unrelated random judge news: I'm not a judge anymore! At least, not a level 1 one anymore.

I've had very little interest in paper magic, outside of prereleases, lately, and a general uncomfortableness with the community in my nearest store, so I haven't judged an event in a long time, so my certification expired. I still keep up with all the rules stuff, if only to show them off here, but more than half of being a judge is the actual face-to-face judging, and I don't do that all that much any more.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 17 Jul 2016, 21:19

Alright. I guess I thought the JAR was more than a suggestion. Though it being as such makes sense and is better for me to know. I'll ask them that next time I'm there to see if it's a choice not to use them. It wouldn't surprise me if it is given the place holds a good number of Competitive REL events. I thought it was more confusion due to my assumption and the time. This was the last event close to midnight and the store had been running events since midnight pre-release, which I thought might have added to the confusion.

Thanks for the help, and apologies if I came off poorly.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 17 Jul 2016, 21:35

It might be me that's not communicating well. I mean, I say "suggestion" or "recommendation", but that might be understating it. There really isn't a reason to not follow what it says. When I say "it's their event" I mean, "They're the head judge, and you can't really argue with them", but if they're saying it's Regular, but enforcing the IPG fixes, etc, and it's not a misunderstanding/mistake, I would talk to someone. I don't know where you are, but you can contact the Regional Coordinator here:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/o/program- ... rdinators/
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby chetoos » 19 Jul 2016, 11:08

I had a Tajic on the field, and my opponent used puncture bolt on it. He claims that the first damage would still destroy him, and I'm saying it wouldn't. He says that it's basic logic, the damage is still marked on him, and that it's the -1/-1 counter that kills him, but I say that no, all damage is basically ignored on him. Please settle this rules case for us.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 19 Jul 2016, 13:25

korvys wrote:It might be me that's not communicating well. I mean, I say "suggestion" or "recommendation", but that might be understating it. There really isn't a reason to not follow what it says. When I say "it's their event" I mean, "They're the head judge, and you can't really argue with them", but if they're saying it's Regular, but enforcing the IPG fixes, etc, and it's not a misunderstanding/mistake, I would talk to someone. I don't know where you are, but you can contact the Regional Coordinator here:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/o/program- ... rdinators/


Alright. I'll talk to them about it next time I'm there and see what happens and act accordingly. While I'd rather not cause trouble, it also seems important for them to run events correctly. And this does seem more an issue of misunderstanding rather than anything. Thanks for all of the help.

chetoos wrote:I had a Tajic on the field, and my opponent used puncture bolt on it. He claims that the first damage would still destroy him, and I'm saying it wouldn't. He says that it's basic logic, the damage is still marked on him, and that it's the -1/-1 counter that kills him, but I say that no, all damage is basically ignored on him. Please settle this rules case for us.


You are correct in this case. Damage marked on an indestructible creature is only really relevant when it comes to trample from what I understand. So Tajic survives as a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on him. It would take another -1/-1 effect that brings Tajic below 0 toughness for the creature to die.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 19 Jul 2016, 16:28

The 2 important things here are SBAs (State Based Actions)
- A creature with damage on it equal to it's toughness dies
- A creature with 0 toughness dies

Indestructible creatures ignore the first one, no matter how the situation has arisen. Whether the damage increased to match the toughness, or the toughness was decreased to match the damage, the same SBA condition is being met, and ignored.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby theycallmejokke » 26 Jul 2016, 16:03

Just wanted to check something with our Judges, and rule savvy people. I seem to recall that in the rule language owner, and controller is not the same thing, correct?
Does that mean if I have a Hanweir Battlements in play, and steals my opponent's Hanweir Garrison I can't actually meld them into Hanweir, the Writhing Township as I only control both, don't own both?
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