Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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phlip
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 26 Jul 2016, 16:10

Correct.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby theycallmejokke » 26 Jul 2016, 16:41

Roger that, It was what I thought but I don't talk rules super well so I just wanted to double check, thanks for the quick answer Phlip. :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby chetoos » 26 Jul 2016, 16:47

I believe that is correct, though if you did take control of the opponent's half of the meld card with act of treason, you can start the meld to exile them both.

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 26 Jul 2016, 17:04

chetoos wrote:if you did take control of the opponent's half of the meld card with act of treason, you can start the meld to exile them both.

No, the trigger only happens if you "both own and control" both halves. If you control a half that your opponent owns, it isn't going to help.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Jul 2016, 18:16

Multiple Meld targets: Do I get to choose? Let's use Chittering Host for ease of discussion.

If I have 1 Graf Rats and 2 Midnight Scavengers, I'm assuming all 3 don't get exiled... Is there a priority in choosing one over the other, or is it just my choice of whichever I want?

What if I have the reverse? 2 Graf Rats and 1 Midnight Scavengers? I assume both effects go on the stack, but the one on the bottom just fizzles. Does the Graf Rats still get exiled, though?

Meld Cards + Clone Effects: How does this work?

If I clone a Graf Rats and have a Midnight Scavengers, I'm assuming the effect triggers, but they both just get exiled since the clone can't Meld, having no back-side. Would it also be the same if the Graf Rats was real and the Midnight Scavengers was cloned?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 26 Jul 2016, 18:40

In order:

You get to choose which pair mends. The other half doesn't go anywhere.

The first trigger to resolve makes a pair meld, the other trigger does nothing.

If either half is a token, or a clone, or some other thing where the back of the card when it get's exiled isn't the appropriate half of the meld card, neither half comes back.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 26 Jul 2016, 18:52

AdmiralMemo wrote:If I have 1 Graf Rats and 2 Midnight Scavengers, I'm assuming all 3 don't get exiled... Is there a priority in choosing one over the other, or is it just my choice of whichever I want?

When Graf Rats's trigger resolves, you'll pick one of the two Midnight Scavengerses to exile, and then they'll come back melded. The other Midnight Scavengers will be unaffected.

Per the Release Notes: "If you control more than one object with one of those names, you select one object with that name to exile."

AdmiralMemo wrote:What if I have the reverse? 2 Graf Rats and 1 Midnight Scavengers? I assume both effects go on the stack, but the one on the bottom just fizzles. Does the Graf Rats still get exiled, though?

At the beginning of combat, both Graf Rats will trigger. You can order them on the stack however you want, since you control both. The first one to resolve will do the meld thing. Then the second one will do nothing, as the condition is an intervening if.

AdmiralMemo wrote:Meld Cards + Clone Effects: How does this work?

If I clone a Graf Rats and have a Midnight Scavengers, I'm assuming the effect triggers, but they both just get exiled since the clone can't Meld, having no back-side. Would it also be the same if the Graf Rats was real and the Midnight Scavengers was cloned?

When the clone(s) are exiled, they stop being copies of whatever, and so they're no longer a part of the same meld pair. So when they go to return to the battlefield melded, they can't, and both halves will remain exiled.

I think that if you have a meld pair that has been turned into a copy of a different meld pair, then it actually works, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Like, if you play Bruna, and Cytoshape it into Graf Rats, then play Gisela and Cytoshape it into Midnight Scavengers, then I think your Graf-Rats-copy will trigger, exile both, and successfully meld them into Brisela. I'm not certain, though. And I doubt it would ever come up in a real game, even if you were specifically trying to make it happen.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SixFootTurkey » 28 Jul 2016, 04:58

The rules are a tad ambiguous, but I'm fairly certain you cannot have a pair copied as another pair meld into the 'wrong' melded card. This is because all of the abilities that result in melding specify which card they are melding _into_, and the rules go out of the way to specify the meld pairs in 712.1a. Since Bruna and Gisela cannot meld into Chittering Host, they should remain in exile.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby CleverCrumbish » 31 Jul 2016, 14:12

As far as I know, there currently exists no card that does this, but what can I say, I like to brew custom sets.

Is the "attached" state caused by equipping an equipment the same as the one caused by enchanting a creature with an aura? More specifically, if an equipment transformed into an enchant creature aura, would it remain attached to the creature it was equipped to (assume for the sake of simplicity that the transform trigger requires the equipment actually to be attached to a creature at the time) or would the transform clause need an Origins walker style "exile and return attached to" clause?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 31 Jul 2016, 16:38

They're the same thing... this actually came up before, in this thread, using some shenanigans to make a permanent into both an Aura and an Equipment, and then re-equipping it and asking if it also enchanted the new attachee...
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303.4k An ability of a permanent that refers to the “enchanted [object or player]” refers to whatever object or player that permanent is attached to, even if the permanent with the ability isn’t an Aura.
301.5e An ability of a permanent that refers to the “equipped creature” refers to whatever creature that permanent is attached to, even if the permanent with the ability isn’t an Equipment.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 01 Aug 2016, 10:35

An aura that's also an equipment is still put into the graveyard as a state based action if it ever is not attached to an appropriate permanent, correct?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 01 Aug 2016, 16:50

Correct.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 06 Aug 2016, 23:36

The EMN Eldrazi Werewolves have no way to transform back to their front side on their own. However, edge case scenario, can you target Sinuous Predator, for example, with Waxing Moon, and transform it back to Kessig Prowler? Not sure why you'd want to, but reasons could come up.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 07 Aug 2016, 00:27

Sure. Sinuous Predator is still a Werewolf, so it's a legal target, and it's still capable of transforming (it just doesn't have a way to do so on its own).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 11 Aug 2016, 18:16

can dromaka's command prevent the damage from kozilek's return when it gets triggered from a graveyard
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 11 Aug 2016, 19:12

No. There is no Instant or Sorcery spell to target, it is a triggered ability.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Aug 2016, 01:15

So, I have a pet card in Moonmist... and I like breaking it.

The flavor of it is that the Moonmist comes through and transforms all the werewolves...

Well, for one, there are a variety of flavor fails, even in its original block. Then, there's the fact that it kills 4/5 of the Origins flip-walkers.
How it does that, if anyone is confused - Click to Expand
If you're confused how that works, a planeswalker has to enter the battlefield to get loyalty counters. This is part of the reason why the wording on the cards says to exile it and then return it to the battlefield transformed. Moonmist bypasses that, so it directly transforms the creature into a planeswalker with no loyalty counters, which then dies on state-based actions.


But then, I encountered a mechanical interaction that I didn't know how it works specifically...

Moonmist + Accursed Witch

If you transform Accursed Witch directly with Moonmist, when it becomes Infectious Curse, do you get to target your opponent at that time? Based upon the previously-mentioned fact that Moonmist kills the flip-walkers, I'm suspecting that's not the case. I suspect that what will happen is that it'll become an Aura that isn't attached to anything, which then goes directly to the graveyard during SBAs. Can a judge confirm this for me, or otherwise let me know that I would get to target an opponent upon transformation?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 15 Aug 2016, 05:31

Gatherer ruling for Accursed Witch wrote:If an effect causes Accursed Witch to transform on the battlefield, rather than leaving it and returning transformed, then Infectious Curse doesn’t become attached to any player and is put into your graveyard. This won’t cause abilities that trigger when a creature leaves the battlefield to trigger.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Aug 2016, 19:47

Oops... Should've read Gatherer more carefully. Sorry about that.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby TaiyouShinobi » 19 Aug 2016, 17:00

Theoretically: If a planeswalker would somehow loses its planeswalker typing would you be able to activate its loyalty abilities anymore? Like if a a basic land loses its subtype, it cannot produce mana tied to that subtype unless it has text saying otherwise, correct?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 19 Aug 2016, 19:23

Good question. I believe there was a discussion that concluded that if you were able to turn a Planeswalker into a creature and put a +1/+1 counter on it while you had Experiment Kraj on the battlefield, you would be able to activate loyalty abilities on Kraj - but subject to other loyalty ability rules, only one per turn.

I think what that really means, though, is that if you were to remove the Planeswalker type without removing abilities - and I'm not sure how, so please share which cards would accomplish that - you would still be able to activate one loyalty ability on each of your turns.

With that said, I await the comment of someone who better understands the applicable rules.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SixFootTurkey » 21 Aug 2016, 14:36

Things tied to the Planeswalker type:
- Planeswalker subtypes
- ETB replacement
- SBA loyalty check
- SBA uniqueness check

Activating loyalty abilities is not - however I can't think of any way to remove the type 'Planeswalker' atm (there's absolutely no way to set/change subtype). If that's the case, the question itself has no meaning. (Rules don't need to cover things that aren't possible; if they want to make them possible, they'll change the rules to accommodate them.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 21 Aug 2016, 16:54

SixFootTurkey wrote:I can't think of any way to remove the type 'Planeswalker' atm.
Only thing I can think of is Song of the Dryads.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby RadioshackRaider » 21 Aug 2016, 16:55

AdmiralMemo wrote:
SixFootTurkey wrote:I can't think of any way to remove the type 'Planeswalker' atm.
Only thing I can think of is Song of the Dryads.


Isn't Imprisoned in the Moon essentially Blue Song of the Dryads?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 21 Aug 2016, 17:00

Oh, that too, yeah, and makes it less/more useful by turning it essentially into a Wastes instead of a Forest.
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