Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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guidance
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby guidance » 01 May 2013, 13:52

Oh wow, thanks guys this is going to be a fun deck.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 02 May 2013, 05:17

if i cast blood i.e. flesh//blood and target my 6/6 and target player and when its on stack he kills or bounces my 6/6 does blood still hit for 6 when it resolves.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ZePancakes » 02 May 2013, 05:27

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: The power check on the target creature is done as it resolves so should the creature be taken out, you have an illegal target and it hits for zero.

15/04/2013 As Blood is resolving, if only one of the targets is legal, Blood will still resolve but will have no effect: If the first target is illegal, it can’t deal damage to anything. If the second target creature or player is illegal, it can’t be dealt damage.
15/04/2013 The amount of damage dealt is based on the first target creature’s power as Blood resolves.


At least that's how I read it. Could be wrong.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 02 May 2013, 06:15

yeah i figured i just was not sure if it targets before or after resolving. sounds like it does both
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 02 May 2013, 06:27

Right. Because it's the creature itself that would be dealing the damage (it says "Target creature deals damage equal to its power ...", not "Blood deals damage equal to target creature's power ..."), it needs to be on the battlefield at resolution, otherwise there's nothing there to deal damage and the effect does nothing.

Note that it isn't countered, because it has multiple targets (the creature and the player) and one of the targets is still there. It still resolves, it just has no effect. If it was worded differently so it was Blood dealing the damage, then it would still resolve and the damage would happen.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 02 May 2013, 14:47

if i bloodrush a rubblehulk and give someone +4+4 for example can i then bioshift those 4 counters on to another guy during 2nd main.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 02 May 2013, 15:05

Giving something +1/+1 is not the same as giving it a +1/+1 counter.

So, no, there are no counters on your guy to move (Unless there are. But Rubblehulk didn't put them there.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AzureAngel17 » 02 May 2013, 15:11

Lemegeton wrote:if i bloodrush a rubblehulk and give someone +4+4 for example can i then bioshift those 4 counters on to another guy during 2nd main.


Bloodrush does not create any +1/+1 counters. Bloodrushing merely gives a creature a temporary stat-boost, whereas counters are [typically]* used when an effect can last for multiple turns (such as counters from Evolve, Unleash, Undying, or Scavenge).


*(I'm learning never to speak in absolutes regarding Magic: The Gathering.)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 02 May 2013, 15:21

yeah i figured that was a long shot but it never hurts to ask :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Undersol » 03 May 2013, 10:57

[...]whereas counters are [typically]* used when an effect can last for multiple turns (such as counters from Evolve, Unleash, Undying, or Scavenge).


*(I'm learning never to speak in absolutes regarding Magic: The Gathering.)

As far as I know +1/+1 counters are never used for an effect that last only one turn. I think the only "temporary" +1/+1 counters are those on Blood Hound. I say "temporary" because if you use cards (like some of the Simic goodies from the recent block) to move the counters off Blood Hound and onto another creature then you get to keep those counters.

I only know of one case where a permanent P/T boost is accomplished w/o counters. Riding the Dilu Horse just gives the creature +2/+2(and horsemanship) indefinitely. Pretty sure that was an oversight/"simplification" because it was printed in Portal3K.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Yaxley » 03 May 2013, 13:15

Undersol wrote:As far as I know +1/+1 counters are never used for an effect that last only one turn.

Bounty of the Hunt is the only thing that comes to my mind.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Utilitarian » 03 May 2013, 13:40

The bottom line is that if the spell uses counters it will say, explicitly, the word "counter" on it. Any other bonus or penalty to power or toughness is not a counter
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lord Hosk » 04 May 2013, 06:55

I had a Gideon, Champion of Justice down and transformed him to a creature, I cast a Knightly Valor to give him +2/+2

Now my opponent scoped but, When he went back to being a planeswalker would the +2/+2 have stayed on or fallen off?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Dubious_wolf » 04 May 2013, 07:44

It would have fallen off. I do believe. Though I'm no judge.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 04 May 2013, 09:09

Yes, it would have fallen off. Auras constantly check that the thing they're enchanting is valid - if the thing it's enchanting doesn't match the thing they're supposed to enchant (in the case of Knightly Valor, a creature), it will be put into the graveyard as a state-based action.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lord Hosk » 04 May 2013, 09:27

What about cypher, same as a keyrune? stays on?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 04 May 2013, 12:49

I'm not a judge, but I think cypher works and stays.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AzureAngel17 » 04 May 2013, 14:27

Yes, Cipher remains until the card it's encoding leaves the battlefield in some way.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drecon » 05 May 2013, 03:55

Just last week I had a conversation about something like this.

Let's say you have a Skill Borrower in play and an equipment on top of your deck. My conversation partner claimed that you could activate the equip ability of the Borrower and it would stay on the creature.

This seems counter-intuitive though. I actually thought you could probably not even activate the ability. He was pretty intent though on claiming he had researched it and it was true. I really wanted to be sure though.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 05 May 2013, 04:31

Yes, Skill Borrower will gain the "Equip" ability of the equipment on top of the library. And yes, you can activate that, and "equip" the Skill Borrower to another creature. The rules for "Equip" don't require the thing you're equipping to actually be equipment... it just says "[Cost]: Attach this permanent to target creature you control. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."

However, if a creature is attached to another creature, it becomes unattached as a state-based action. Ditto for any permanent that is not an Aura or Equipment (or Fortification). So Skill Borrower will become unattached again immediately after the "Equip" ability resolves. In particular, if the equipment on top of your library that would affect the equipped creature (like Ring of Evos Isle) or which otherwise requires the equipment to be equipped (like Sunforger) you don't have opportunity to activate the ability before it falls off.

If you wanted to be able to equip Skill Borrower to a creature and have it stick, you'd need to use some crazy combination of effects to make it (a) not a creature, and (b) either an Equipment or an Aura (and thus either an Artifact or an Enchantment).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drecon » 05 May 2013, 04:47

Ah, thanks for that. I thought it would be something along those lines.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 05 May 2013, 05:20

guys how does the following work

i have a corpsejack menace and an unevolved renegade krasis in play
i play a savageborn hydra as a 3/3

will the hydra come in as 6/6 from corpse ability and then the krasis adds another counter so its a 7/7

or will the krasis add the counter first and then corpse doubles them so its a 8/8

or do i get to decide and i can put the corpse trigger on the stack first and the krasis trigger second.

cant figure this one out
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 05 May 2013, 11:51

First off, I don't think Corpseack Menace triggers at all. It's ability isn't an activated ability. I think it's similar to Parallel Lives, which just says something like 'if this would happen, double it instead.' That's how I understand it anyways.

Second, what would happen is this: Savageborn comes in with 6 +1/+1 counters. There's never a moment when the Hydra DOESN'T have the counters when coming into the battlefield, otherwise it'd just die, and since Menace isn't a triggered ability, it just doubles. Krasis then evolves because it sees a 6/6. When it puts the counter on the Hydra (and any other creature with +1/+1 counters on it), it puts two instead of one, just like how it's own evolve will put two counters on it instead of one due to the menace.

It's important to note that the Krasis isn't putting a second counter on due to getting the extra one itself. Krasis ability only triggers when it's evolve resolves, and then only once per evolve trigger. The reason the hydra would still become an 8/8 due to getting 2 counters is because of the fact that Corpsejack still doubles the counters the ones that goes on everyone else. The reason I mention this is because I just found out about the Krasis thing myself.


Also, for a semi-related question that I'm 99% sure the answer is yes to, does Trostani's life-gain ability trigger and go on the stack? I'm confident it does, since it's an ETB ability, but I've had people say they think it's not. I want to make sure mostly due to it's interaction with Cathars' Crusade, especially when tokens hit the field. I usually specifically mention that I put Trostani's triggers on the stack first, then the crusade's, because then I get more life when Trostani Resolves. I've had one time where someone thought that Trostani's ability is a static effect, meaning that it'd just happen right away.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Lemegeton » 05 May 2013, 12:22

ok so in the same vein if i played Exava instead of the hydra and unleashed her she comes in as 5/5 because menace doubled the unleash counter and then krasis triggers and puts on another counter which is doubled by corpse so exava comes in as a 7/7 ???
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 05 May 2013, 12:29

I believe so, yes. Unleash specifically gives you the option to allow the creature to enter the battlefield with a 1/1 counter. No matter when it comes on, it'd be doubled. But since she's a 3/3 anyways, she'd trigger evolve no matter what. That just means that, if you played her with unleash, she'd come into the battlefield as a 5/5, triggering all evolve with power or toughness less than 5.

Mind you, I'm not a judge. This is just from my understanding.

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