Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

[Drunk On Mystery]

I was thinking more for a Legacy/Vintage format, although I doubt I'd ever actually play it in a tournament. I'm actually fascinated that Demonic Consultation is banned in that format but Divining Witch, whose ability is to shape a discarded card into Demonic Consultation, isn't.

Man, I'd forgotten how much I like the Spellshaper mechanic.

And I'd thought about Leveler, but my big goal with this deck was nothing above a mana cost of 3. I was struggling to decide whether or not I should make an exception for Bubble Matrix or not.

[JayBlanc]

But don't try to use Divining Witch in Modern, that card is a long way off being legal in Modern

Modern being the format created to exclude these kinds of hard to predict combos created by new cards and legacy ones... yes, that was the joke. And with Modern easing off the need to consider all the cards in the history, they will be more. Legacy is probably going to end up full of decks like this which have a trick win condition trigger created from new cards. Until they decide to put one of the required cards for the combo into the banned list for legacy, and probably the restricted list for vintage.

[Avistew]

I have a question, but I don't remember the name of all the cards. Hopefully you'll know which I'm referring to.

I equipped a scythe that was +10/+10 onto a 1/1 creature. In response my opponent cast an instant that gave -1/-1 to a card. In response to the response I cast a white instant giving +1/+1 for one turn.

If I'm correct, that makes the formerly 1/1 creature a 0/0 as soon as the turn ends. Because it was equipped with +10/+10, I didn't discard it and counted it as a 10/10. Was that correct?
If I moved the scythe to a different creature, am I right to believe the first creature would go into my graveyard?

[theDreamer]

I'm confused.

Did either card create a counter, or was it a "target creature gets -1/-1 till end of turn" and "target creature gets +1/+1 till end of turn"?

[SilPho]

I think what Avistew meant is pretty much what you thought, Dreamer.

If a 1/1 creature equipped with a toughness boosting equipment of some sort (I can't work out which Scythe you mean) gets a -1/-1 counter then as long as its toughness remains about 0 it will not die. Equipping the scythe to something else leaves that creature with 0 toughness, and then state-based-actions whisk it away to the graveyard.

This is the reason that the Living Weapon equipment works, the germs are 0/0 but every living weapon grants them a toughness boost.

[JayBlanc]

Work through the stack...

1) Scythe equip goes onto the stack.
2) Instant that gives -1/-1 to the 1/1 creature goes on the stack.
3) Instant that gives +1/+1 to the 1/1 creature for the turn goes on the stack.
4) No more plays, stack starts to resolve.
5) Instant that gives +1/+1 to the creature triggers. Creature now 2/2
6) Instant that gives -1/-1 to the creature triggers. Creature now 1/1
7) Scythe equipped. Creature now 11/11.
End of turn, Instant that gives +1/+1 to the creature expires. Creature now 10/10.

The creature is never 0/0 at any point through this, so it was right for you to keep it in play.

The creature never reaches 0/0 because equipment counts for keeping a creature 'alive'. For example, the 0/0 germ tokens that 'living weapons' are equipped to. But if the -1/-1 was an enchantment/counter on the creature, then removing the equipment will kill it.

[Avistew]

I don't remember if the first one (the -1/-1) said "until end of turn" so my question was, if it's not until end of turn but forever. If it's until end of turn I figure they just cancel out and expire at the same time so nothing happens.

[SilPho]

Then yeah, in that case the equipment will be the only thing keeping your creature alive.

A +1/+1 counter will cancel out a -1/-1 counter for good (they both vanish) but if it's just an effect granted by a spell until end of turn then the counter will stick around.

[theDreamer]

I know Judges aren't technically allowed to talk about rules of sets before the set comes out, but I need to know:

If I give a creature with undying (when this dies, if it has no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter) persist, would both trigger at the same time, and it would come back with 0 counters on it?

What if it has a +1/+1 counter, I give it persist, and then it dies?
It comes back with a -1/-1 counter, yes? And then (if nothing removes the counter), it would cycle through persist and undying?

[SilPho]

The notion that judges should not discuss rules before the sets come out is to stop people getting the wrong impression about how a rule might work before the details are released and to stop people asking about specific cards that are not officially spoiled yet.

In this case however, the official spoiler and FAQ is already out, and Undying is basically a spin of persist, so we can work out how it operates easily enough.

Short Answer: The creature will almost always come back due to one or the other.
Long Answer: If a creature dies with no counters on it, both Persist and Undying will trigger, you control both triggers so you can stack them however you wish. When the first resolves it will return the creature to the battlefield with a counter, depending on which ability you chose.
Later on, if the creature dies again with that counter type on it, only the other ability will trigger. Undying doesn't care about -1/-1 counters and vice versa for persist. So after that the creature will likely alternate between the two.

Bonus: There is, however, one situation where the creature will not return, if a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it is dealt enough damage by a creature with infect or wither it will have both types of counter on it, and have an overall toughness of 0 or less. This means that when state-based-actions put it into the graveyard both abilities will see that it had the type of counter they look for. Neither will trigger and the creature remains in the graveyard.

[phlip]

So you're saying if an Undying Persist creature dies without counters, it comes back with only one (effectively of your choice)? Not with both (and thus, shortly afterward, neither)? Does "return it to the battlefield" implicitly require it to be in the graveyard when it resolves, or something? So as it's already back on the battlefield when the second trigger resolves, it fizzles?

I'm still confused why they wouldn't both resolve... eg Undying resolving and moving the creature from graveyard to the battlefield and adding a +1/+1 counter, and then Persist moving it from the battlefield to the battlefield (a no-op) and adding a -1/-1 counter (and then the counters cancelling).

[edit]
The FAQ for DKA says that multiple instances of Undying on the same creature will trigger separately, but the extras will have no effect (ie it won't come in with multiple +1/+1 counters), which I guess is essentially the same thing...

[SilPho]

phlip, I'm pretty sure the FAQ has cleared things up for you, but for anyone who fancies a more technical explanation, here we go.

How multiple copies of Persist and/or Undying work
Normally an ability cannot track an object between zones, there are exceptions to this (7, to be precise) and one of those exceptions (400.7d) is a clause that permits "Leaves the battlefield" abilities to work (Undying and Persist fall under this category), the trigger from the battlefield can still find the object in the graveyard, regardless of what it now looks like*.

This exception allows Persist and Undying triggers to find the card in the graveyard, but there is no exception that will let them follow that card anywhere else. When those triggers resolve they are looking for the same card in the same zone. The second ability to resolve will be unable to find the object it needs, and thus fails.

Abilities normally do as much as they can, even if their first half doesn't work** (except when all targets are illegal), but since they have no idea where the card went they can't put a counter on a creature.

Footnotes
* This means a copy, not a token, of a creature with persist or undying will still return to the battlefield with a counter. Clone, for example, will return to the battlefield with a counter and as a copy of a newly selected creature.

** A card that says "Destroy target creature. You gain life equal to its toughness", will still let you gain life if the creature isn't destroyed, thanks to indestructibility, but will be countered entirely if the target is no longer legal.

[dackwards d]

Here's a question about haste. If a creature has haste through some outside influence but loses it before attacking does it still count as having haste? For example you have the enchantment Fervor out, giving all creatures you control haste, when you summon a creature. Fervor gives it haste but before your attacking phase your opponent removes the enchantment, meaning the creature no longer has haste. Can it attack that turn or does it suffer summoning sickness as normal?

[phlip]

How multiple copies of Persist and/or Undying work
Normally an ability cannot track an object between zones, there are exceptions to this (7, to be precise) and one of those exceptions (400.7d) is a clause that permits "Leaves the battlefield" abilities to work (Undying and Persist fall under this category), the trigger from the battlefield can still find the object in the graveyard, regardless of what it now looks like*.

This exception allows Persist and Undying triggers to find the card in the graveyard, but there is no exception that will let them follow that card anywhere else. When those triggers resolve they are looking for the same card in the same zone. The second ability to resolve will be unable to find the object it needs, and thus fails.

Abilities normally do as much as they can, even if their first half doesn't work** (except when all targets are illegal), but since they have no idea where the card went they can't put a counter on a creature.

Interesting. Very interesting indeed.

I have to say, as a programmer, I see a lot of resemblance between the comprehensive rules and an old heavily-patched-together computer program that's seen one too many "clever" maintainers that have managed to hack in major changes and squeeze them in around the spider's nest that's already in place... that same sense of "Subsystem A has to do X before it does Y because otherwise subsystem B will do Z and ruin everything, even though looking at subsystem A alone, doing X doesn't seem to make much sense"...

[SilPho]

@dackwards:
Whether a creature can be declared as an attacker or not is only checked at the beginning of the declare attackers step, during the action of actually choosing which creatures are going to attack. If the creature has summoning sickness then it will need to have Haste at that exact moment. If it loses haste after being declared as an attacker that doesn't make a difference.

@phlip:
Speaking as a programmer myself, the comprehensive rules fascinate me, because they do cover pretty much anything that can happen in a game of Magic. The system, complex as it is, is logical and very well thought out. Obviously Magic isn't easy to translate into a program, MTGO is proof enough of that, but there is a distinct appeal in how well the game really works.

Part of the reason it's going to feel cobbled together sometimes is because the designers get to do nearly whatever they want, then the rules team have to work out how to really make it work. There's a lot of to and fro, but they do a good job.

[dackwards d]

Goblin Arsonist has the special rule "When Goblin Arsonist dies, you may have it deal 1 damage to target creature or player." At what point does this damage actually occur? If, for example, it was equipped with a Gorgon Flail (giving it deathtouch), would the damage happen while the flail was still equipped or after it has dropped and the goblin has hit the graveyard?

[SilPho]

Short Answer: The damage dealt is still deathtouch damage.
Long Answer: The ability is put onto the stack when the Goblin Arsonist dies, at this point the card is in the graveyard and the ability is waiting to resolve. By the time it does resolve it can't find the Arsonist on the battlefield any more (for obvious reasons) but the damage still needs to be dealt, so the game uses "Last Known Information" to determine the kind of damage to deal. In the case of Gorgon Flail the game will see that he had deathtouch and deal damage accordingly.

This is why something that gains Protection from Red between the targeting and resolution of the ability will not be harmed by the damage because the game still has to look back at the Goblin's prior existence to determine its colour.

[dackwards d]

Ah, I never thought of it that way. Speaking of colour protection, a creature with a different coloured activated ability doesn't count as that colour right? So say a red creature has an activated ability that costs black mana the creature still counts only as red for the purposes of protection?
What about the ability itself? If the aforementioned red creature used its activated ability to target a creature with prot black would it be immune?
Finally, different coloured flashback costs. If a blue spell with a black flashback cost gets cast from the graveyard is it a blue, black or blue/black spell?

[DuelLadyS]

Just something that came up during the pre-release tourney... 'Saving Grasp- return target creature you own to your hand'. Does that mean from anywhere? I used it to nab back a creature exiled by a Fiend Hunter, but I'm not sure if that was legal.

[the amativeness]

Just something that came up during the pre-release tourney... 'Saving Grasp- return target creature you own to your hand'. Does that mean from anywhere? I used it to nab back a creature exiled by a Fiend Hunter, but I'm not sure if that was legal.

Pretty sure it's legal.

Side note from wizards.com:

Saving Grasp can target any creature you own, even one controlled by another player.

[dackwards d]

I was looking at Saving Grasp's discussion page on Gatherer and saw this comment in response to some people asking the same question:

If it's in your graveyard or library or wherever, it's not a creature, it's a creature card.

I'm going to wait for the judges ruling but that rings pretty true for me. It'd be a bit broken for one mana otherwise.

On second glance it just looks like Unsummon with a targeting restriction and flashback.

[phlip]

"Target creature" means a creature on the battlefield - anywhere else it'll be referred to as a "creature card", and the spell will specifically say where it's allowed to come from (be it the graveyard, or whatever). Compare, say, Choulcaller's Chant, which lets you pull a "creature card" out of the graveyard.

As for the colours... 99% sure that the colour of a spell is determined solely by its mana cost (or the colour indicator, if there is one)... not ability activation costs. So if you flash back, say, Ancient Grudge, it's still a red spell, you could still target a pro-green artifact, but not a pro-red one. Similarly, an off-colour ability activation cost doesn't matter - it's still damage or targeting or whatever from a source that is the original colour.
Note that this is different to the Commander rules for card colours - the Commander colour for a card is based on every mana symbol on that card... but the colour of the card as far as the actual game mechanics are concerned is solely the colours in the mana cost. Or the colour indicator.

[SilPho]

@dackwards:
Abilities are the colour of the card that created them, not the colour of mana that you used to pay for it. Ancient Grudge is a red spell regardless of whether you cast it normally, for its flashback cost, or through other means.

@DuelLady:
Short Answer: Saving Grasp must target creatures on the battlefield.
Long Answer: A creature (not a creature card) only exists on the battlefield, a creature on the battlefield will always have a controller and an owner, which may not be the same person. If someone steals a creature with Mind Control (Or, indeed, Soul Seizer) then the controller will change, but whoever started the game with that card in their deck remains the owner of that creature.

Bonus: As phlip has alluded to in his post, the colour indicator exists on some cards to determine their colours if the mana cost alone is unable to do so, it is why transformed cards still have colours and why Evermind was printed with an ability to force it in to being blue, but has now been changed to have a colour indicator.

[guidance]

Can you have more than one gutter grime enchanted onto you? If so if you have more than one and both have a different amount of slime counters on them, when a new ooze is created how do you know what its stats are going to be?

[theDreamer]

1) You don't have gutter grime enchanted onto you. "Enchanted" as a verb refers to auras and curses, only.

2) To answer your ACTUAL question, you can have infinite on the battlefield under your control. In fact, the official FAQ has an answer to your question:
"9/22/2011: If you control more than one Gutter Grime, each Ooze token remembers which one created it. The power and toughness of that Ooze will be equal to the number of slime counters on that Gutter Grime only."