Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

[Avistew]

Sean used a Fiend Hunter to exhile a card of mine which had +1/+1 counters on it and was equipped. What happens to the equipment and counters?

[SilPho]

The same thing that happens when a creature dies, the counters cease to exist and the equipment remains on the battlefield. The graveyard and exile zones are not really that different in how they work, the graveyard is just used a lot more.

[phlip]

With the "fights" magic word (eg on Prey Upon), does that count as combat, for the likes of Ghostly Possession, Inquisitor's Flail, first strike and the like? The name "fights" suggests yes, but the detail in the reminder text suggests no...

[dackwards d]

Not a judge, but everything about it makes me think "no." It's like two seperate damage spells - say you use it on your 3/3 and the opponent's 2/2, essentially Prey Upon is dealing 3 damage to the 2/2 creature and 2 damage to the 3/3.

That said the actual source of the damage is stillthe creatures, so I'm reasonably sure that abilities like Lifelink or Deathtouch will kick in.

[phlip]

Yeah, the only reason I think it might be "yes" is that it would make more sense flavour-wise... which doesn't really mean much. Just making sure, though. (Also, to nitpick: it's still the creatures doing damage to each other, not Prey Upon doing damage to both...)

[SilPho]

What dackwards said is correct. Prey Upon and other 'fight' cards are not combat damage. Nor is something like Prodigal Pyromancer. The only thing in the game that does cause combat damage is the damage dealt by creatures at the start of combat-damage step.

Though I do agree that for the purposes of flavour it would make sense, but the added confusion wouldn't be worth the benefit.

[dackwards d]

Yeah, I meant that the effects of Prey Upon were essentially to do 3 damage and blah blah. I didn't word it well.

[dackwards d]

Just to double check: the effects of Lifelink, Deathtouch etc kick in when the creature does damage, even if it isn't combat damage? So if a Prodigal Pyromancer gained deathtouch he could essentially kill a monster every turn at no risk to himself (aside from spells). Or if my Spikeshot Goblin has Lifelink and the Claws of Valakut, every turn I can deal X damage to target creature or player and gain X life, where X is the number of mountains I control plus 1, for 1 mana.
I think I need a couple of Basilisk Collars in my red deck.

[SilPho]

I had actually considered adding that as a bonus to my previous answer.

Short Answer: Yes, Deathtouch and Lifelink apply for any damage.
Long Answer: On top of that, they're not triggered abilities, so you can't do anything between the damage getting dealt and the life being gained or the creature dying.

Bonus: Lifelink as a static ability (rather than a triggered ability) does mean that if an opponent's creatures deal 5 combat damage to you while you are on 5 life you will survive if you have a lifelink creature involved in the combat. It used to be that you would lose the life and then have to wait for the trigger to resolve, but you'd be dead before that happened.

[Avistew]

The same thing that happens when a creature dies, the counters cease to exist and the equipment remains on the battlefield. The graveyard and exile zones are not really that different in how they work, the graveyard is just used a lot more.

So when the creature comes back, it has lost its counters? (When Fiend Hunter dies the creature it was exhiling goes back on the battlefield under the control of its owner).
That sucks if it's a 0/0 with counters, because then it dies >.>

[dackwards d]

Most of the 0/0 cards have some kind of effect to get pluses when they enter the battlefield. Unless it specifies that it has to be entering the battlefield from your hand that ability should still trigger.

I think.

[SilPho]

A creature returning to the battlefield after being exiled by a Fiend Hunter will only have counters on it if an ability specifically says so. Unbreathing Horde, for example, would get a fresh set of counters based on the current number of Zombie cards in the relevant locations. Mikaeus, the Lunarch on the other hand will not be so lucky.

As an added point, you can't use Mikaeus' first tap ability to give him a counter in time. State based actions are faster than that.

[phlip]

How about dual-sided cards... if Fiend Hunter exiles a transformed card, and then dies, does the exiled card come back transformed or not? Say, to pick an example at random... you manage to get Ludevic's Abomination out, and it gets exiled and comes back... does it come back as an Abomination or a Test Subject? I know it doesn't come back transformed if it dies and you play Unburial Rites, and definitely not if it's unsummoned and you cast it again...

As an added point, you can't use Mikaeus' first tap ability to give him a counter in time. State based actions are faster than that.

Even if it doesn't die immediately (say, if you have Honor of the Pure out), it'd have summoning sickness anyway, right?

[SilPho]

As an added point, you can't use Mikaeus' first tap ability to give him a counter in time. State based actions are faster than that.

Even if it doesn't die immediately (say, if you have Honor of the Pure out), it'd have summoning sickness anyway, right?

Yeah, that too

As for transformed cards - They will also come back "sunny-side-up" so to speak. A card entering the battlefield, regardless of where it comes from, is always going to be a brand new object with no* memory of its previous existences.

*Technical details: The comprehensive rules do list some exceptions to that, but that's so for abilities like flashback to be able to look back in order to see if flashback costs were paid etc. Generally everything is brand new.

Bonus: Making something a "new object" has many possible reasons, this is why Momentary Blink is such a flexible card. It can do all of these and more: remove creatures from combat, untap them, remove counters, remove enchantments, make equipment fall off, unflip them (for flipped cards and double-faced cards), and can even cause targeted spells and abilities to lose track of their target.

Momentary Blink can even keep you alive if you're relying on a Platinum Angel that's just been targeted for destruction.

[Robert Merlow]

I am attempting to become a rules advisor and hopefully afterwards a level one judge. What exactly is entailed in becoming a judge?

[SilPho]

It seems I can actually answer this in similar fashion to a regular rules question

Short Answer: Talk to your local judge.
Long Answer: Becoming a judge is not as daunting as some people think it might be. The best thing to do is talk to a local judge, he or she will be able to talk to you about the best way for you to get some judging experience. It might be that they'll let you run an FNM or just help out, it depends on the size of the event. They'll be there to help you out so it's not as scary as it sounds.

Game days and pre-releases are other great times to get some experience because of the fun atmosphere and traditionally larger turnout than FNM tournaments.

Bonus stuff: The rules advisor tests are a good starting point for your rules knowledge, and having a look through the Magic Tournament Rules (MTR) and Judging at Regular REL (JAR) documents are also a very good idea. The Magic Infraction and Penalty Guide (MIPG) isn't something you need to know in depth yet.

Being a judge is definitely work, but it's far more rewarding and enjoyable than any employment I've ever had. The best way to get a good feel for it is to try it out, talk to your local judge and they will either help you or get you in contact with someone who will.

[DuelLadyS]

I have come to the conclusion my sister's boyfriend is lying to her about rulings in order to beat her at Magic. I just overheard him saying that his ruling sources claim Worldslayer can destroy darksteel artifacts and other cards with 'indestructible' as an ability. "Because it's a global effect."

So, the question is: Is this guy full of crap or what?

[SilPho]

He is wrong in the case of Worldslayer but I'd bet this is due to a misinterpretation of the rules rather than outright lying.

Worldslayer cannot destroy indestructible permanents but it can destroy permanents with Protection from Artifacts (or indeed something with "Protection from Everything"). This is because Worldslayer specifically says "Destroy" and indestructible specifically says "Effects that say 'destroy' don't destroy that permanent".

Protection on the other hand does not prevent destruction, it just prevents common causes of destruction: such as damage and spells that target.

So to sum up, Worldslayer can take down Progenitus and Emrakul but can't touch a little Darksteel Myr.

[phlip]

A situation that came up in FNM today: I have equipment on a creature, and pay to move it to another creature. In response to that, my opponent destroys the target creature. Does the equipment end up falling off, or does it stay on the original creature? Since the targeted creature is destroyed, the attempt to move it should be countered, right? Or is removing the equipment from the current creature part of the cost of re-equipping... so it happens even if the move is countered?

I had enough land untapped to re-equip it to the original creature and nothing to save mana for, so it didn't really matter for the game, but still...

[Geoff_B]

In my opinion it sounds like the equipment falls off. I'm not an expert on the whole priority thing but wouldn't the opponent be responding to the fact that the equipment is now on the new creature rather than responding to you paying the mana cost for it?

[dackwards d]

I think it would work as follows: you paid the mana to re-equip, then he cast the spell. The spell resolves before the equipment attaches, killing the creature. Normally if the target of a spell or ability stops being a viable target the spell fizzles - I assume this would be the same. As such it would have no effect, leaving the equipment attached but the mana still spent.

Unless the equipment would have made the creature survive the spell I imagine it would usually be both simpler and more effective to wait until the equipment was attached, then kill the creature. That would stop any confusion and would force them to do what you had to do - pay the equipment cost a second time to put it back on the original creature.

[Geoff_B]

So is the question here when you pay the mana does the equipment leave the first creature, or does it only leave the first creature when it gets round to attaching to the second?

[SilPho]

Short Answer: It stays attached.
Long Answer: For this I can simply refer you to part of the comprehensive rules (edited for readability):

701.3b If an effect tries to attach something to an object it can‘t be attached to, it doesn't move. If an effect tries to attach something to the object it‘s already attached to, the effect does nothing.

Here "something" translates into "Aura, Equipment or Fortification".


When moving an equipment from one creature to another there is never a point at which the equipment is not attached to anything.

[DuelLadyS]

He is wrong in the case of Worldslayer but I'd bet this is due to a misinterpretation of the rules rather than outright lying.

....

So to sum up, Worldslayer can take down Progenitus and Emrakul but can't touch a little Darksteel Myr.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to opt for the 'full of crap' argument, though. So far, besides this bit, this guy has told me/my sister:
- Monster abilites work as sorcery and not instant
- Planeswalkers can't use their abilites the turn they're played due to summoning sickness (Also, planeswalkers are 'sucky cheater cards')
-saying 'ok' a player's action means you waive your right to counter said action (specifically to the exchange "I attack with Greater Basilisk", "Ok, I Doom Blade him.")

Then he told my sister my fiance was a cheater with us 2 feet away. Yeah... didn't make a good impression, to say the least.

Anyway, quick question... if a card has a standard legal printing currently available, are older printings of the same card also legal? I read that's the case the other day, and while it's good for players to not have to re-buy their cards, it sounds like a nightmare for checking deck legality.

[SilPho]

Any edition of a card can be played as long as there is a version currently legal in the format. You can even use cards in foreign languages. Checking deck legality isn't an issue here.

A friend of mine actually made a deck for an FNM a few years ago that would also have been legal around 94 or 95, something like that, using cards he has owned since that time. I mean, the deck wasn't good by todays standards but it was cool seeing these old cards getting another shot at prosperity.