Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
So for the Stalking Yeti example, there's a stack to determine whether or not the spell resolves and the yeti actually appears on the battlefield, then the triggered ability sets up a new stack, during which the yeti could get lightning bolted or something before the ability comes up in the stack, in which case nothing happens.
It just seems weird phrasing to see "enter the battlefield" and "on the battlefield" in the same text like that.
It just seems weird phrasing to see "enter the battlefield" and "on the battlefield" in the same text like that.
Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Yes, that's exactly it. The Yeti still needs to be on the battlefield when the ability resolves, whereas something like Flametongue Kavu has no such restriction.
The Yeti's text is very strange, but it's the only way to phrase that ability using current Magic text templates.
The Yeti's text is very strange, but it's the only way to phrase that ability using current Magic text templates.
- phlip
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Well, it could be errataed to use the "fight" keyword, couldn't it? That already is made to do nothing if either creature involved is no longer on the battlefield at resolution... Compare Nightfall Predator, which can "fight" creatures, and also does no damage if killed/bounced/etc in response to the ability...
Also, I'm guessing that the reason that the Yeti required this "if it's on the battlefield" clause but otherwise cards like, say, Triangle of War didn't need it and still had rulings saying that if either creature left the battlefield before resolution then no damage is dealt, is because the Yeti is referring to itself, and thus that "last known values" thing applies? And it would otherwise still deal damage equal to the power it had when it left the battlefield? Am I understanding that right?
Also, I'm guessing that the reason that the Yeti required this "if it's on the battlefield" clause but otherwise cards like, say, Triangle of War didn't need it and still had rulings saying that if either creature left the battlefield before resolution then no damage is dealt, is because the Yeti is referring to itself, and thus that "last known values" thing applies? And it would otherwise still deal damage equal to the power it had when it left the battlefield? Am I understanding that right?
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Sorry, another question AVR related - If I use the new "flicker" ability on a creature that's the target of another ability, when the creature comes back is it still the target of that ability? I remember someone saying that the creature counts as a new creature when it comes back to the field, so does the ability targeting it no longer work?
- tamaness
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
It's a completely different card, according to the rules of the game. It left play, and is now a different entity entirely.
Formerly madAlric
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- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
So how does that work in terms of Restoration Angel?
For example I attack with my human. He gets blocked and is about to die. I flash in Restoration Angel to save him. Is he still attacking? Does he get summoning sickness? Similar question with blocking?
For example I attack with my human. He gets blocked and is about to die. I flash in Restoration Angel to save him. Is he still attacking? Does he get summoning sickness? Similar question with blocking?
- tamaness
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
1) no, he's not attacking. I don't say "no longer," because for all intents and purposes, the attacker no longer exists. It's a different creature.
2) he has summoning sickness because you haven't controlled him since the beginning of the turn.
3) If you were to do this when blocking, the blocked creature is still blocked, but is dealt no damage, as the blocker no longer exists during the combat damage step.
edit:
even further, it's no longer the target of any spells or abilities which were on the stack under Restoration Angel's ETB effect, because it's a different creature.
2) he has summoning sickness because you haven't controlled him since the beginning of the turn.
3) If you were to do this when blocking, the blocked creature is still blocked, but is dealt no damage, as the blocker no longer exists during the combat damage step.
edit:
even further, it's no longer the target of any spells or abilities which were on the stack under Restoration Angel's ETB effect, because it's a different creature.
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- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Yeah, no potential confusion there at all Would it be simpler to treat the creature as being exiled with a copy taking its place rather than saying the creature comes back under your control?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
To be fair, I had Flicker in my collection and couldn't tell what the hell it was meant to do until I read some of the design theory articles from AVR on Wizards' website.
In essence, when a permanent leaves the battlefield, either due to being exiled or being moved to a different game zone, it's no longer a valid target. If it re-enters the battlefield, it's as if a new card was just played. ETB effects trigger, creatures are subject to summoning sickness, etc.
When an attacker leaves the battlefield before the end of combat, he doesn't deal any damage, as he wasn't present during the combat damage step.
When a blocker leaves combat, the attacker he is blocking is still blocked, but doesn't take any damage. (If the attacker has trample, I'm pretty sure it can just deal all of its damage right to the player anyway, though.)
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've got this bit down pretty well.
In essence, when a permanent leaves the battlefield, either due to being exiled or being moved to a different game zone, it's no longer a valid target. If it re-enters the battlefield, it's as if a new card was just played. ETB effects trigger, creatures are subject to summoning sickness, etc.
When an attacker leaves the battlefield before the end of combat, he doesn't deal any damage, as he wasn't present during the combat damage step.
When a blocker leaves combat, the attacker he is blocking is still blocked, but doesn't take any damage. (If the attacker has trample, I'm pretty sure it can just deal all of its damage right to the player anyway, though.)
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've got this bit down pretty well.
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- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Oh I see it
10/4/2004 This could be used to make the target of another spell or ability illegal if this wasn't a Sorcery (which makes it really hard to do that). This is because the Flickered permanent leaves the battlefield and then returns as a completely different permanent, and the targeted spell will not recognize it.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Ok, a question that has been bugging me a while and although it's pretty simple I can't find the answer on the gatherer.
Say I play a Plainswalkers, let's say Gideon, and then play Aegis Angel or similar to make him indestructible, what happens when he hits 0 loyalty counters?
Does he survive or for the purposes of indistructibility do Plainswalkers count as players and die anyway? I'm guessing he would die but as I say, I can't seem to spot any obvious rulings on it.
Say I play a Plainswalkers, let's say Gideon, and then play Aegis Angel or similar to make him indestructible, what happens when he hits 0 loyalty counters?
Does he survive or for the purposes of indistructibility do Plainswalkers count as players and die anyway? I'm guessing he would die but as I say, I can't seem to spot any obvious rulings on it.
- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
It probably depends on whether depleting loyalty counters counts as lethal damage. My instinct says it will be removed from the game.
There's a thread on MTG Salvation about this very thing
There's a thread on MTG Salvation about this very thing
- tamaness
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
I'm pretty sure the Planeswalkers die when they have 0 loyalty counters, regardless of "indestructible" effects or not. There's nothing I can point to that supports nor challenges this, though.
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- phlip
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Well, not "removed from the game" as in the thing that's now called "exiled", that definitely doesn't happen.
But yes, a quick check of the comprehensive rules says that a planeswalker with loyalty 0 is "put into its owner's graveyard", in the same way as a creature having a toughness of 0. It's definitely a different wording than, say, lethal damage, or deathtouch damage, which both use "destroy" in the official rules text.
But yes, a quick check of the comprehensive rules says that a planeswalker with loyalty 0 is "put into its owner's graveyard", in the same way as a creature having a toughness of 0. It's definitely a different wording than, say, lethal damage, or deathtouch damage, which both use "destroy" in the official rules text.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
But in the case of Gideon, you'd play him, use his 0 ability to turn him into a 6/6 creature for the turn then play Aegis Angel to make him indestructible, of course you may not need to as his text says "prevent all damage that is dealt to him this turn"
- Dibria
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
As I said I assume it goes, indistructibility effects don't prevent things with 0 toughness dying after all so I don't see why it would save a Plainswalker. My confusion comes in basically as to whether indistructibility has any effect on Plainswalkers at all? It won't prevent them taking damage so all it stops is 'destroy' spells as indistructable permanents can still be exiled which is the usual 'oh shit they played a Plainswalker' response.
- phlip
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
It'd stop... um... Bramblecrush, I guess? My searches aren't turning up any effects that are just straight-up "destroy target planeswalker" or anything like that, but there are some "destroy target permanent" spells that can target planeswalkers...
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
but how about watch phone?
[he/him/his]
Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
The only card that says detsroy target planeswalker is Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
There must always be a Stark in the Moonbase
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Sorry if this is something of a stupid question but I'm still new to Magic, what exactly are the rules for when a card is kicked? For example for each time you kick that card it comes on with a +1/+1 counter. Do those counters remain in play or is it just the turn it was summoned?
- Geoff_B
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Kicking a card means you pay an optional extra cost, for example if a CMC 2 creature has a CMC 3 kicker cost you can pay 2 mana to cast the creature or 5 mana to cast the creature and get the extra effect.
If an ability has no ending condition (ie until end of turn) then it's always going to be in effect - in your example if the ability says +1/+1 until end of turn then it'll be until the end of the turn, at which point the +1/+1 drops off. Otherwise if it just says +1/+1 then it stays as long as the creature is on the battlefield.
If an ability has no ending condition (ie until end of turn) then it's always going to be in effect - in your example if the ability says +1/+1 until end of turn then it'll be until the end of the turn, at which point the +1/+1 drops off. Otherwise if it just says +1/+1 then it stays as long as the creature is on the battlefield.
Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Wow, this thread has been busy today. I have a couple of little points to add. Nobody has said anything wrong, I just like to clarify stuff.
@Anyone
Planeswalkers with 0 loyalty counters are put into the graveyard as a state-based-action. This is very similar to creatures dying from 0 toughness.
@Dibria
Plainswalkers are not the same as Planeswalkers. Sorry to be picky about it
@Dracs
As Geoff said, the game will normally say "until end of turn", but counters are different. Counters will always stick around beyond the end of the turn. Counters are Magic's way of tracking something indefinitely. For example: Aether Figment will keep its counters but the effect from Vines of Vastwood will only last one turn. Also, don't feel afraid to ask questions, no matter how small .
@Anyone
Planeswalkers with 0 loyalty counters are put into the graveyard as a state-based-action. This is very similar to creatures dying from 0 toughness.
@Dibria
Plainswalkers are not the same as Planeswalkers. Sorry to be picky about it
@Dracs
As Geoff said, the game will normally say "until end of turn", but counters are different. Counters will always stick around beyond the end of the turn. Counters are Magic's way of tracking something indefinitely. For example: Aether Figment will keep its counters but the effect from Vines of Vastwood will only last one turn. Also, don't feel afraid to ask questions, no matter how small .
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I shall have to try and find a new way to combat my mate's Flyover deck.
Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Does not know what format or colors you play but a card like Whirlwind which says: Destroy all creatures with flying. is pretty good against flying decks
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge
Good point I will have to look for it, its a green card isn't it? I'm currently playing the Green / Blue deck Grave Power. Its my first time playing with such a deck my old ones being both pure white.
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