Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Oct 2011, 23:02

Short Answer: Treat it as if the numbers are actually written there.
Long Answer: As far as modifying the power and toughness of these cards, these abilities actually sit right at the bottom of the power and toughness layer. (Remember I mentioned layers before). They are affected by everything, just like creatures that actually have their power and toughness explicitly written on them.

What he might have been confused by is the fact that those abilities operate at all times, for example, when searching through a graveyard for Reveillark targets you can only target a Boneyard Wurm if there are 2 or fewer creature cards in your graveyard (So, just the Wurm and the Reveillark in most cases).

Let's say we have 5 dead creatures. We then have a 5/5 Wurm. If someone comes along and casts Diminish on it then it becomes 1/1, just like any other creature. Counters will still affect the power and toughness after that, so a single point of infect damage would kill it.

Hopefully I've explained that well enough. I can explain the layers in more detail if people are interested but it can get a bit technical. (And most of the time nobody ever needs to use it)
User avatar
DuelLadyS
Posts: 230
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 10:44
First Video: Unskippable
Location: WA state

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby DuelLadyS » 19 Oct 2011, 11:09

Having a bit of a disagreement with my sister on the ol' rulings, so I thought I'd come ask for some clarification.

Basically, she says that a magic forum she visits (draw 3 cards) claims that as of October 1st, activated abilites trigger as sorcery, not instant. Meaning that Bloodthrone Vampire/Choking Fumes thing I posted back on page 1 is illegal. I can only find notations in the offical rules about priority- which I know jumps back and forth, but she seems to think means 'your turn' (and I can't convince her otherwise yet.)

Since so much of my fiance's deck relies on the 'activated abilites match intstants in speed', I promised him I'd bring it up again, just to be totally sure there's nothing that says they work at sorcery speed (unless otherwise stated).
User avatar
Trymantha
Posts: 1266
Joined: 17 Dec 2009, 18:47
First Video: Watchmen Watching
Location: Dunedin NZ/ Sunshine coast AUS

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Trymantha » 19 Oct 2011, 11:22

DuelLadyS wrote:Having a bit of a disagreement with my sister on the ol' rulings, so I thought I'd come ask for some clarification.

Basically, she says that a magic forum she visits (draw 3 cards) claims that as of October 1st, activated abilites trigger as sorcery, not instant. Meaning that Bloodthrone Vampire/Choking Fumes thing I posted back on page 1 is illegal. I can only find notations in the offical rules about priority- which I know jumps back and forth, but she seems to think means 'your turn' (and I can't convince her otherwise yet.)

Since so much of my fiance's deck relies on the 'activated abilites match intstants in speed', I promised him I'd bring it up again, just to be totally sure there's nothing that says they work at sorcery speed (unless otherwise stated).



Considering I haven't seen the mtg twitter community go nuts at this assume its not true, a change this big would be a lot more publicized
Ok, for the record im a Guy

||tumblr||twitter||
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 19 Oct 2011, 12:54

If I have a creature that has a metalcraft ability and it's in play, if I then take control of that creature (via Mind Control and such like) does it then lose metalcraft unless I myself have three artifacts?

I need to stop over thinking these things.
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
DuelLadyS
Posts: 230
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 10:44
First Video: Unskippable
Location: WA state

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby DuelLadyS » 19 Oct 2011, 13:28

Trymantha wrote:
DuelLadyS wrote:Having a bit of a disagreement with my sister on the ol' rulings, so I thought I'd come ask for some clarification.

Basically, she says that a magic forum she visits (draw 3 cards) claims that as of October 1st, activated abilites trigger as sorcery, not instant. Meaning that Bloodthrone Vampire/Choking Fumes thing I posted back on page 1 is illegal. I can only find notations in the offical rules about priority- which I know jumps back and forth, but she seems to think means 'your turn' (and I can't convince her otherwise yet.)

Since so much of my fiance's deck relies on the 'activated abilites match intstants in speed', I promised him I'd bring it up again, just to be totally sure there's nothing that says they work at sorcery speed (unless otherwise stated).



Considering I haven't seen the mtg twitter community go nuts at this assume its not true, a change this big would be a lot more publicized


That's basically what I figured, but it's nice to have it in writing for the sake of a paranoid fiance.

Now, how to explain to sis how priority actually works...
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 19 Oct 2011, 14:38

@DuelLadyS
There is no truth to that notion. And believe me, with the people I follow on Twitter it's impossible for me not to hear about stuff like that. Your instant speed creature tricks are safe.

@Geoff_B
Metalcraft says "You" this always refers to the creature's controller, not its owner. So if you Mind Control an Ardent Recruit it will only look at the number of artifacts its current controller has.
User avatar
Matt
LRR Crew
Posts: 9742
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:19
Location: Victoria, BC
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Matt » 19 Oct 2011, 14:45

Considering that the grand abolisher, which is in standard rotation right now, turns off your opponent's abilities and spells on your turn, it would be really dumb for that rule change to occurr. It would render that card useless.

-m
Image

I am not angry at you.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 19 Oct 2011, 14:49

It makes me for one realise how much thought at WOTC goes into these rules, especially when they could clash with rules put in place years ago.
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
Trymantha
Posts: 1266
Joined: 17 Dec 2009, 18:47
First Video: Watchmen Watching
Location: Dunedin NZ/ Sunshine coast AUS

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Trymantha » 19 Oct 2011, 14:57

I hate to be a dick with a stupid over complicated question(again this like the other one Im genuinely interested in understadning these)

Banding?
Ok, for the record im a Guy

||tumblr||twitter||
Drunk On Mystery
Posts: 65
Joined: 12 Aug 2011, 07:01
First Video: Some episode of Unskippable.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 19 Oct 2011, 16:37

Trymantha wrote:I hate to be a dick with a stupid over complicated question(again this like the other one Im genuinely interested in understadning these)

Banding?


In essence, a band of creatures functions in combat like one larger creature.

So a 2/2 with banding in a band with a 1/1 will function as a single 3/3 creature in combat(essentially). One benefit of a band is that any combat damage dealt to a band is dealt to the band as a whole, and then the band's controller gets to divide it. So in the earlier example, if that band were to block a 1/1 creature, the band's controller could choose to deal the 1 damage to the 2/2, and neither creature in the band would die.

A band's maximum size is equal to the number of creatures with banding +1. So if you have 3 creatures with banding, you can create a band consisting of those 3 creatures, plus 1 creature without banding.

Also of note: a band only has abilities that all creatures in the band share. So if you have an attacking band in which one creature has flying and one does not, the band does not fly and can be blocked by non-flying, non-reach creatures.
This is why we can't have nice things.
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 19 Oct 2011, 16:54

Hmm. I'm assuming that banding only counts in combat, they creatures aren't bound together by the banding permanently. Is that correct? Out of curiosity, does the band count as being one creature when being targeted by spell? If a creature being blocked by a band of mixed colours (say a pair of white creatures and a red one) gained protection from one of those colours would only the other coloured creatures deal damge or would the whole band be counted as a single white & red creature?
ImageImage
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1789
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 19 Oct 2011, 21:41

I have a couple of questions about the order in which things happen...

Say I have a Rage Thrower on the table, and play Day of Judgment. Does the Rage Thrower's ability trigger for every creature that dies (except itself)? Or do they die in some sort of order, and it only triggers for the ones before it? Or something else?

Also, is it possible to play something in response to one part of a card's effect? For instance, say my opponent plays Ponder. Can I make them mill a card after the "put the cards back in order" bit, but before the "draw a card" bit, thus milling the card they just decided they wanted most?
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 19 Oct 2011, 23:19

@Philip
Short Answer: Everything dies at once.
Long Answer: A card like Day of Judgment causes all of the creatures to die simultaneously. Rage Thrower is able to see every other creature that dies as part of a zone-change trigger, and here is a trimmed down version of this specific rule

603.6d: [..] Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, [..] will trigger based on their existence and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.

Try not to read too much in to that, it's more complicated than it needs to be. It basically says that the ability knows it was on the battlefield when the creatures died. This is sort of why a creature that looks for itself dying still works.

(Regarding actions during the middle of a spell)
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Spells and abilities resolve completely before anyone has the chance to do anything not directly related to that resolution. Basically "I've started, so I'll finish". This all comes down to the priority system, which I don't have time to explain now (already late for work) but again, if anyone would like a more detailed explanation I would be happy to oblige.

@Trymantha
I'll put together a summary of what banding actually lets you do when I can make sure I've got it right.
Drunk On Mystery
Posts: 65
Joined: 12 Aug 2011, 07:01
First Video: Some episode of Unskippable.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 20 Oct 2011, 03:46

dackwards d wrote:Hmm. I'm assuming that banding only counts in combat, they creatures aren't bound together by the banding permanently. Is that correct? Out of curiosity, does the band count as being one creature when being targeted by spell? If a creature being blocked by a band of mixed colours (say a pair of white creatures and a red one) gained protection from one of those colours would only the other coloured creatures deal damge or would the whole band be counted as a single white & red creature?


Banding only counts in combat, and the band dissolves at the end of each combat.

A band "Being one creature" is only in terms of assigning blockers and assigning damage. All individual creature characteristics and abilities are for that creature only.

So in the scenario you provided, all creatures assign damage, but only the damage from the creature of the non-protected color is not prevented by the protection. The band isn't considered a single multi-color creature in terms of damage and protection.

Similarly, if a band of a 2/2 and a 1/1 first strike block a 3/3, only the 1/1 deals first strike damage, so the whole band still would end up taking 3 damage. However, because it was a band, you could choose to deal all 3 damage to the 1/1 so the 2/2 survives or something.

Writing all this out is forcing me to remember how much banding sucks. I'll never forgive you for this.
This is why we can't have nice things.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 20 Oct 2011, 04:11

Drunk On Mystery wrote:Writing all this out is forcing me to remember how much banding sucks. I'll never forgive you for this.


Presumably that's why it didn't come up in later editions?
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 20 Oct 2011, 05:14

Drunk On Mystery wrote:Writing all this out is forcing me to remember how much banding sucks. I'll never forgive you for this.

Hey, don't blame it on me, blame it on Trymantha. Or, potentially, the boogie.
ImageImage
Drunk On Mystery
Posts: 65
Joined: 12 Aug 2011, 07:01
First Video: Some episode of Unskippable.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 20 Oct 2011, 08:25

Geoff_B wrote:
Drunk On Mystery wrote:Writing all this out is forcing me to remember how much banding sucks. I'll never forgive you for this.


Presumably that's why it didn't come up in later editions?


I imagine so. Banding went away right around the same time as the first time I quit playing, and at the time I remember pretty clearly thinking that there was rarely any reason to band creatures together, particularly when attacking.

Combine that with the fact that most creatures that HAD banding sucked outloud(why would I want a 1/1 banding Benalish Hero when I can get a 2/1 Savannah Lions or a 1/1 first striking Tundra Wolves for the same mana cost?) and you ended up with a skill for which no one had any real use. So it went away.

Kind of like how Rampage was only marginally useful, so it was dropped.
This is why we can't have nice things.
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 20 Oct 2011, 13:05

In case anyone was wondering, I've written a guide to banding but I'm just running it past some other judges to make sure my understanding is solid. It seems that Banding might actually be... good, in some cases, so I want to be sure.
Drunk On Mystery
Posts: 65
Joined: 12 Aug 2011, 07:01
First Video: Some episode of Unskippable.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 20 Oct 2011, 13:53

SilPho wrote:In case anyone was wondering, I've written a guide to banding but I'm just running it past some other judges to make sure my understanding is solid. It seems that Banding might actually be... good, in some cases, so I want to be sure.


It was good in some cases but never often enough to justify itself, and again: there were always better cards for the same price as banding creatures.
This is why we can't have nice things.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 20 Oct 2011, 14:15

Going back to the Gideon Jura stuff, can he be Mind Controlled when he's in soldier mode?
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 20 Oct 2011, 14:26

Technically no, since Mind Control is an enchantment, which means sorcery speed. But if you could play it at instant speed (with a Leyline of Anticipation, for example) then you would only control him for as long as he remained a creature.

Stick with something like Confiscate for all of your thefting enchantment needs ;)
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 24 Oct 2011, 01:05

Ok, here we go: An all-you-never-needed-to-know guide to Banding.

Banding

What is a band?
As a player declares attackers, he or she may declare any number of bands. A band can have any number of creatures with Banding and up to one without Banding in it. Alternatively, a band may consist of a creature with "Bands with other ..." and any number of other creatures that match that criteria. Creatures can only be in one band at a time.

All creatures in a band must attack the same player or planeswalker.

Bands last for the rest of combat, even if any of the creatures lose their banding ability.

What does Banding mean for attackers? This is where it gets weird.
If one creature in a band is blocked by something, every creature in that band is blocked by the same thing. This means a band of 4 flyers and one non-flyer can be blocked by a single non-flying creature. Spells that cause creatures to become blocked also apply to the whole band.

If a creature with banding (and\or a band) is blocked, then the attacking player (rather than the defending player) chooses how the BLOCKING creature assigns its damage.

The bit people forget about: What banding means for blockers
If a blocking creature has banding (or two creatures sharing a "bands with other .." ability) then the defending player (rather than the attacking player) chooses how the ATTACKING creature assigns its damage. Yes, blockers can make use of their banding ability, even though they don't technically form a band.

Huh?
Normally, players choose how their own creatures assign combat damage to opposing creatures. Banding lets players choose how creatures they do not control deal damage.
If a creature has banding (note, this doesn't say "is in a band") then you get to choose how it gets injured as well as how it damages other creatures.

If both the attacker and the blocker have banding then the players effectively switch damage assignment roles.

Why?
Yeah, it's pretty confusing. But lets look at some examples:

A 2/2 and a 4/4 are in a band. They are blocked by a 3/3. Normally, the blocking creature would probably assign the damage to the 2/2 in order to kill it. But since the attacking creatures have banding, their controller chooses how the 3/3 assigns its damage, and he or she will probably have the 3/3 deal 3 damage to the 4/4. This results in a dead 3/3 and two surviving attackers.

For an added kick in the teeth, Banding throws the damage assignment order business out the window. So even if that 3/3 was actually a 4/4, the defending player could assign 1 point to the 2/2 and the other 3 to the 4/4, leaving the attackers alive. Something you can't do without Banding.

A 1/1 with banding and four 1/1 creatures without banding all block the same 6/6 creature. Normally, the 6/6 will assign lethal damage to all 5 blockers and go home happy. But since a blocker has banding, the defending player chooses how the 6/6 assigns damage. And he's far more likely to assign all the damage to a single 1/1. The 6/6 still survives, but hasn't been very successful.

And guess what, if a 15/15 trampler is blocked by a 1/1 with banding - The defending player will probably choose to deal all 15 points of damage to the 1/1. No trample damage hitting the player.
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 24 Oct 2011, 01:14

Huh. The trample thing at the end threw me. That would be quite the handy ability against a stompy green deck. Still, looking at how convoluted the banding rules are I'm pretty glad it only aplies to a small number of dudes.
ImageImage
SilPho
Posts: 1640
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 09:46
First Video: Desert Bus 3
Location: Usually the UK

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 24 Oct 2011, 01:31

The trample part is something that any trampler can do, but more often than not it is more beneficial to throw the extra damage at a player.
User avatar
dackwards d
Posts: 968
Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:49
First Video: The Job

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 26 Oct 2011, 02:28

How do Infect creatures interact with Modular creatures? For example, an Arcbound Bruiser is blocked by Ichor Rats. Would the Bruiser lose two +1/+1 tokens or continue having three +1/+1 tokens while also having two -1/-1 tokens?
ImageImage

Return to “Magic: The Gathering”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest