Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

[Matt0Wolfy0Hegi]

I feel like this question must have been asked before but:
Does Detain affect my Extort triggers? Because its not an activated ability in the same way as Capashen Knight's is but requires additional mana to use it.

Thanks to anyone that can help me with this

[korvys]

Not it does not.

Extort is a Triggered Ability. You can spot these as they have "When" or "Whenever" on them (or in this case, in the reminder text).

Activated abilities are always shown as "cost: effect", with the colon in the middle there.

[Matt0Wolfy0Hegi]

Thank you sir, that is what i thought but my friend doesn't believe me

[illbane]

Just had this come up in MTGO
If my opponent attacks me with a Master of Diversion, can he tap down my Gladecover Scout (has hexproof)? I had an Illusionary Armor on said Scout that I thought was safe, but MTGO did not.

[Kapol]

He shouldn't have been able to I believe. Send the bug into them and let them know.

[SilPho]

Kapol is right, that definitely sounds like a bug with MTGO.

[Kapol]

So this question came up in another thread, and I figure it best to ask. If you play a Corpsejack Menace with a Master Biomancer on the field, does the Menace get +1/+1 counters equal to Biomancer's power, or double it? I think it's only equal to the power due to the fact that Corpsejack enters with said counters, meaning that they're on him as soon as he hits the board. But MTGO apparently disagrees with me according to Memo. I'm not sure if it's a glitch, or if I'm wrong.

[phlip]

It shouldn't be doubled... as it gets the counters as it enters the battlefield, so its static ability doesn't apply yet.

Reading the CR... 614.12 says that an ETB replacement effect that's an ability on the thing that's entering the battlefield only applies "if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it)". The specific examples given in the CR are that Scarwood Treefolk enters tapped, but Orb of Dreams does not (it just makes future permanents enter tapped).

If it's happening on MtGO that you have a Biomancer (say) as a 2/4, and nothing else that affects +1/+! counters, and play a Corpsejack Menace, and it comes in with four +1/+1 counters... then that's a bug in MtGO, and should probably be reported.

[korvys]

The tricky part here is that the replacement ability on Corpsejack Menace isn't an ETB replacement effect, it's a replacement effect that changes the way counters are added, and the Master Biomancer is an ETB replacement effect that adds counters.

It does seem weird, because as phlip says

it gets the counters as it enters the battlefield, so its static ability doesn't apply yet.

But on the other hand, it can't get the counters unless it is on the battlefield, so its static ability would apply, but by then you would think it would have already locked in the number of counters...

At least that was my train of thought until I just googled the damn thing:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/ ... biomancer/

2 counters (unless you've got other things going on). If it's 4 in MTGO, it's a bug.

[AdmiralMemo]

They should just make "Entering the battlefield" an official zone to help with situations like this. Things pop in, trigger their things, and then finally move out to the battlefield itself.

[SilPho]

The idea of creating a new zone for that state is something I have honestly thought about myself, but then I started to realise that it doesn't quite work with a lot of the finer rules. However, you can kind of use the idea to help you in some situations.

Essentially, creatures preemptively look at the battlefield and work out what they will look like once they actually get there. This means they can consider all of the "As X enters the battlefield...", "Enters the battlefield as...", and other continuous effects and then arrive on the battlefield in the correct state.

So yeah, it can't be a "real" zone, but you can sort of treat it like a temporary storage space for the purposes of some continuous effects.

[Kapol]

Honestly, the way I look at it is that in cases like these, I think of the situation as being that the creature is never -not- that way once it's cast. Unless they have a counter which specifies P/T, or kill Biomancer in response, the creature is basically coming in with the extra two P/T as though it's always had them. That's why Biomancer is so amazing with Evolve. Being worded this way instead of "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, put +1/+1 counters on it equal to Master Biomancer's power" makes it so you never get an ETB trigger or situation from Biomancer. It's a static effect. Kind of like how any global pump like Collective Blessing makes it so your creature never doesn't have the +3/+3, allowing you to play 0/0 creatures without losing them to a SBA.

[korvys]

Thinking about it that way does make some interactions a little unintuitive though. Like Fathom Mage. You get to draw cards if she ETB with the counters from Master Biomancer.

The one that gets me is "leaves the battlefield" triggers look back in time to check stuff. For example if you have a Xathrid Necromancer and 2 other humans, and you Wrath of God, you get 3 zombies, even though by the time the 2 other humans have died, and the game can confirm this, then the Necromancer is also dead, and shouldn't be able to see the humans dying to trigger, but it does (CR603.6d if you're interested).

[Kapol]

Thinking about it that way does make some interactions a little unintuitive though. Like Fathom Mage. You get to draw cards if she ETB with the counters from Master Biomancer.

I actually thought it didn't, but it still makes sense that it does. The +1/+1 counters are still being put on it, even if they're on her as soon as she enters. So it does make sense that the ability would trigger.

[AdmiralMemo]

OK, Ashiok's second ability says that "-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X exiled with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types."

Question: If I have more than one in my deck, play one, exile some stuff, it gets killed somehow, and play a second one, can I return stuff the first one exiled using the second one? They're both named Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, so I'm hoping so.

[phlip]

No, when a card refers to itself by name in an ability, it just means "this permanent", or "this spell", or "this card"... if it's going to refer to other permanents with the same name, it'll say "planeswalkers named Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver" to refer directly to the name (or "Ashiok planeswalkers" to refer to the sub-type) instead.

It's the same thing that applies to Bane Alley Broker, if you look at the Gatherer rulings for it... things exiled by one broker can't be retrieved by another broker, or even the same broker card if it leaves the battlefield and comes back.

[Drecon]

Alright, I'm pretty sure I've got this one but I've been wrong about stuff like this before so I'll ask here.

Can you counter the Theros Gods with Essence Scatter?

Now since it says Creature on the type line it should just get countered, but it might depend on the static devotion ability?
These Creature Enchantments that are only creatures sometimes are really weird...

[Lemegeton]

pretty sure you can counter with essence scatter. devotion is only checked when it enters the battlefield and if its high enough it enters as a legendary enchantment creature and if not it enters as a legendary enchantment. this is based on the theros mechanics article they did.
so while the spell is on the stack you can counter with essence scatter i believe. because devotion is not a factor while its on the stack

[phlip]

With the disclaimer that the Theros FAQ isn't out yet, so this is still mostly educated guesses...

Things that are an "Enchantment Creature" can be targeted by anything that targets a creature, and anything that targets an enchantment. So, for instance, once on the battlefield (and assuming the static ability isn't making it not a creature), the gods can be both Murdered and Erased. However, they can't be Bramblecrushed, since they're a creature. (Ignoring for a moment that they're indestructible... they can still be targeted by those spells.)

For the Gods, with their "if etc then this isn't a creature" clauses, then if that's active, it'll just be an Enchantment, and behave in the normal way as enchantments do (so it could be Erased or Bramblecrushed, for instance).

When it's on the stack, or in someone's hand, or otherwise not on the battlefield, that static ability doesn't apply, so it'll always be an Enchantment Creature spell, or card. So it can be Essence Scattered or Annulled, but can't be Negated.

Basically... everything you already understand about Artifact Creatures applies in the same way here. Neither "Artifact" nor "Enchantment" have any particular rules baggage on their own, aside from the Aura and Equipment/Fortification subtypes. Artifacts hold the special position of being usually colourless, while other spells are usually coloured, but an Artifact Creature behaves within the rules essentially the same as any other Creature, except for a handful of edge cases (like Intimidate) and whether or not things like Smelt can target it.

[Drecon]

Yeah, pretty much what I expected. The thing about them not being creatures in certain conditions is really confusing.

Anyway, I got it. Thanks for the fast reply.

[AdmiralMemo]

I think I've got it. Basically, they're always an Enchantment, and they're always a Creature unless they specifically are not, when on the battlefield, due to Devotion.

[Utilitarian]

I know Theros isn't out yet but maybe there's an answer to this:

If I have an ability in play that allows me to cast creatures at instant speed (Prophet of Kruphix), can I use the Bestow powers of Enchantment Creatures at instant speed?

[Kapol]

I'm pretty sure the answer is no. I'm also confident that bestowed creatures won't be able to be countered using Essence Scatter. The reason why, taken from 'The Mechanics of Theros' article:

If you cast a bestow card for its bestow cost, it's never a creature spell.

[AdmiralMemo]

Not a judge, but I don't think so, since that's a creature ability and not the creature itself. You're not actually casting the creature. I think it's kind of like Bloodrush in that respect.

[AdmiralMemo]

Activating Monstrosity on a creature won't trigger Evolve on other creatures, I assume, since it's not entering the battlefield.