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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 13 Nov 2014, 10:36
by Gildan_Bladeborn
AdmiralMemo wrote:If a token gets Undying and doesn't have a +1/+1 counter on it, it still doesn't come back due to SBAs eliminating it once it hits the graveyard, right? I'm assuming the Undying trigger still goes on the stack, but fizzles due to having no target.

Also, if a non-token creature somehow has both Undying and Persist, I'm assuming it just infinitely recycles from the graveyard due to the counters canceling each other out.

If that's true, Undying + Persist = Poor-man's Indestructible, with bonus Dying and ETB triggers if other creatures care about that. I'm thinking some fun could be had with Puppeteer Clique while Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is on the battlefield. Alternatively with Mikaeus, Murderous Redcap becomes the best blocker, with bonus Shocks. Aerie Ouphes just wipes out any opponent's fliers with no draw-back. With a sac outlet, Woodfall Primus becomes a wiper of lands, artifacts, and enchantments.

I'm not a judge but the combination of Persist and Undying does let you keep bringing creatures that have both those traits back again and again forever (until they lose one or the other ability). You could also use persist creatures and Melira, Sylvok Outcast to get the same result, as she just outright stops the -1 counter that Persist would place on the returning creature from ever happening for as long as she's in play, and Cauldron of Souls + Mikaeus will let you bring any non-human back over and over again (albeit not infinitely by itself like Persist creatures + Mikaeus and a sac outlet allow, as you have to tap the Cauldron).

As for tokens, if they have Persist/Undying or there's some other on-board mechanic like Athreos that triggers when they die, those things all still happen, but there's nothing to bring back to the battlefield/hand/etc because once a token leaves the battlefield it stops existing; Persist/Undying trigger when a creature hits the yard, which both token and real creatures do, and then the triggered ability checks whether that creature is still in the yard when it tries to resolve - the regular creature (normally) will be, the token by definition can't exist there so the effect will always fizzle, as you correctly surmised. The requirement for the object to still be in the graveyard as the trigger resolves is also why cards like Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb are not your friends if you're playing the Persist/Undying shenanigans deck, as your opponent could wipe the board and then exile your graveyard with the triggers on the stack.

On a somewhat related note, if an Undying creature with existing +1/+1 counters on it dies in combat to a creature with Wither/Infect (ie, dies to having -1/-1 counters placed on it), it doesn't come back because it's already been sent to the graveyard before the game gets around to canceling out the +1/+1 counters; it if had survived combat then Undying would be good to go, but since the card as it last existed on the battlefield had a +1/+ counter, Undying won't trigger thanks to that intervening if clause.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 13 Nov 2014, 13:24
by korvys
Token + Undying:
Undying triggers, but token disappears as a state based action, so nothing happens when it resolves.

Undying + Persist:
Both trigger, one resolves first, putting the creature onto the battlefield with a counter, then the other resolves, and can't find the creature and does nothing. It does not get both.

Next time it dies, the counter will prevent one of the abilities from triggering, and it will come back with the other one. It will swap from +1 to -1 to +1, etc, each time it dies.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 09:57
by ElFuzzy
Can I cascade into a bestow and cast it as a bestow?

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 11:11
by AdmiralMemo
Not a judge: You can certainly cascade into it, but I don't believe you can cast it as a bestow, since it's an alternative cost, rather than the original cost.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 17:14
by phlip
Memo is correct. "Cast without paying its mana cost" and Bestow are both alternate costs, and you can only choose a single alternate cost when casting a spell.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 19:21
by AdmiralMemo
OK, can you choose one or the other cost in this situation? Can you Cascade into the card and then choose to pay the Bestow cost instead of the free cost?

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 20 Nov 2014, 20:43
by phlip
No, because Cascade is only giving you permission to cast it without paying its mana cost. You don't have permission to cast it for its primary cost, or any other alternates.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 22 Nov 2014, 13:38
by Gildan_Bladeborn
When an ability lets you cast something without paying the mana cost, unless you could also cast that spell without using the ability (such as having Omniscience in play and deciding not to cast an X-spell you have in your hand for free, as Omniscience is a "may" ability), you are basically locked out of paying alternate casting costs. Cascade makes you exile cards until you hit a non-land card with a lower CMC, so unless you have some other way of casting cards from exile that doesn't care how those cards got into exile (preeeetty sure that doesn't exist), you either decide to cast it using the Cascade ability or you opt not to.

Important note: Casting spells without paying their mana-costs (whether via Cascade or the myriad other ways that might happen) doesn't let you pay alternate costs when you cast those spells, but it does not stop you from being able to pay additional costs. So while you can't Overload or Bestow spells you're casting for free via Cascade, if the spell you hit has Kicker/Multikicker or Conspire you can pay those costs if you want. Likewise, if the spell has an additional cost required to cast it at all (sacrificing a creature, discarding cards, paying an amount of life, etc), you still have to do that to resolve the spell, even if you're casting it without paying the mana cost.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 22 Nov 2014, 15:48
by phlip
Gildan_Bladeborn wrote:unless you have some other way of casting cards from exile that doesn't care how those cards got into exile (preeeetty sure that doesn't exist), you either decide to cast it using the Cascade ability or you opt not to.

Well, there's Misthollow Griffin, but even then, Cascade has you exile the cards and then put them back in your library as part of the resolution of the same ability. You can only cast the cascaded spell during the resolution of the ability because the ability specifically tells you to... you don't get priority, so you don't get the opportunity to cast anything else before the cards are gone.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 23 Nov 2014, 22:47
by Utilitarian
If something cares about whether I "control an X" where x is "zombie" or "goblin" or "human" etc, and I cast a creature spell of that type, when is the previously mentioned condition fulfilled, as soon as the spell is on the stack (assuming I control it) or only once the creature is in play?

my instinct is that it needs to resolve but someone has recently told me otherwise and I am unsure.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 01:18
by korvys
It will need to resolve. When something says "control an X" they actually mean "control an X permanent", and a creature spell is not a creature permanent.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 15:30
by Utilitarian
korvys wrote:It will need to resolve. When something says "control an X" they actually mean "control an X permanent", and a creature spell is not a creature permanent.

Thanks Korv. Can I bother you for the Complete Rules reference? I'm being called out on this. -_-

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 15:35
by JackSlack
Also, I think I asked this before, but...

So, if someone has Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm both out, what happens when someone casts something from their hand?

What about if they're not controlled by the same person?

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 15:53
by korvys
Utilitarian:

Code: Select all

109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn't include the word "card," "spell," "source," or "scheme," it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.

In this case the description is using a creature type, which is a subtype.

---

JackSlack:
The answer to both of those questions is that all of the other players move to another table and start playing a new game without you. Also, all judges in the room shudder for no apparent reason.

Before that, though, some actual stuff happens.

If the Storm resolves first, you do that part, and then the Pool fails, because it only works "If that player does, ...".

If the pool resolves first, you do that part, then do the Storm anyway, cause the Storm doesn't care if you actually exile the card.

Which resolves first depends on who controls them. If they're both controlled by the same player, that player gets to decide. If they are controlled by different players, the one controlled by the active player, or one closest to the active player's left, triggers first, and resolves last.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 16:12
by Utilitarian
Thanks Korv. You da best Judge ^_^

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 18:24
by JackSlack
I deeply appreciate any judge answer that is, "The answer is that I learn to despise you a little bit more."

Thanks, Korvys!

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 21:19
by korvys
Judges will you tell you they hate you for things like that, but really, we love it. I once figured out how to (theoretically) get a token onto the stack. Purely to see if I could. You can't do it anymore, unfortunately.

The old way to get judges to hate you was to ask them about Licids. I think the rules are cleaner now, though. They're kinda not much different to Bestowed creatures.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 24 Nov 2014, 23:50
by SilPho
Banding or the Humility/Opalescence combo will still provoke a groan or two though, or at least they did when I was judging a lot.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 25 Nov 2014, 07:46
by ElFuzzy
Okay so I keep running into this at school. A friend of mine is confused on whether or not Enchantment Auras target. He says someone told him that because something like "Enchant Creature" doesn't explicitly say target then it can get through hexproof.

However I thought that things like Enchant Creature or Enchant Land etc. are just shorthand versions of Enchant Target Creature.

Similar scenario; can I swerve someone else's Market Festival to my land?

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 25 Nov 2014, 12:13
by phlip
Auras do target. They don't explicitly use the word "target" on the card, but they do in the rules about the Aura subtype. There are other things like this too: Equip, Modular, Soulshift, Provoke, Haunt, Reinforce and Scavenge all target, even though it doesn't actually say "target" on the card (outside of potentially in reminder text) but it does say "target" in the CR description of what those abilities mean.

Your friend may be getting confused with a different ruling, for when you're putting auras directly onto the battlefield, rather than casting them... because then you skip the whole "targeting things" step. The aura spell on the stack targets the creature (or whatever) but the aura permanent on the battlefield enchants the creature (again, or whatever). If the aura is being put directly onto the battlefield, it's never targeting anything, so you are able to attach it to eg things with hexproof or shroud (but still not things with protection, because that prevents enchanting as well as preventing targeting).

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 26 Nov 2014, 06:28
by ElFuzzy
If I have Skybind and Prophet of Kruphix on the table then play a fiend hunter, flash out a hopeful eidolon in response to the fiend hunters first ability he then permanently exiles said target. I know that much.

However, what happens when he comes back at EoT and I flash out another thing in response to the first trigger and bounce him again. Does he come back at my opponents EoT?

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 26 Nov 2014, 11:50
by Phosphatide
That is correct. You can compare it to "until end of turn" effects where those end at the cleanup step instead.

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 28 Nov 2014, 01:54
by tamaness
korvys wrote:JackSlack:
The answer to both of those questions is that all of the other players move to another table and start playing a new game without you. Also, all judges in the room shudder for no apparent reason.

Before that, though, some actual stuff happens.

If the Storm resolves first, you do that part, and then the Pool fails, because it only works "If that player does, ...".

If the pool resolves first, you do that part, then do the Storm anyway, cause the Storm doesn't care if you actually exile the card.

Which resolves first depends on who controls them. If they're both controlled by the same player, that player gets to decide. If they are controlled by different players, the one controlled by the active player, or one closest to the active player's left, triggers first, and resolves last.


If you control both, you can stack your triggers however you want to. Triggers don't care about timestamp order. If you and another player control the Pool and the Storm, then the triggers stack in AP/NAP order, then resolve as normal. (603.3b, 101.4)

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 28 Nov 2014, 01:57
by tamaness
Oh, I'm a certified L1 judge now (yay!).

Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Posted: 28 Nov 2014, 03:36
by korvys
tamaness wrote:If you control both, you can stack your triggers however you want to. Triggers don't care about timestamp order. If you and another player control the Pool and the Storm, then the triggers stack in AP/NAP order, then resolve as normal. (603.3b, 101.4)

Did I miss something in my explanation?