Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 18 Mar 2015, 12:59

Elenodul wrote:I have a question on how Zealous Persecution works.

i just had a game where i had a Voice of Resurgence with 1 damage on it and my opponent cast Zealous Persecution. the Voice dies of course, but my opponent claimed that since i had no other creatures out, the token Voice creates when it dies, would also die, because the -1/-1 from Zealous Persecution was still affecting creatures on my side, even ones that entered the battlefield after the spell resolved. i claim it only affects the creatures on the battle field at the time the spell resolves.

Who is right?


Short answer: You are right (As Memo said). It only affects the creatures when the spell resolves.

Long answer: If anyone wants to read the ruling for it (along with official examples) I've pasted it below. The bold emphasis is my own. I'm including this as a disclaimer because the exceptions to this rule can be hard to grasp without the examples.

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611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that don’t, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.

Example: An effect that reads “All white creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn” gives the bonus to all permanents that are white creatures when the spell or ability resolves — even if they change color later — and doesn’t affect those that enter the battlefield or turn white afterward.

Example: An effect that reads “Prevent all damage creatures would deal this turn” doesn’t modify any object’s characteristics, so it’s modifying the rules of the game. That means the effect will apply even to damage from creatures that weren’t on the battlefield when the continuous effect began. It also affects damage from permanents that become creatures later in the turn.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 18 Mar 2015, 13:08

@ElFuzzy if you will need any additional info about becoming a judge, PM me, I'm always happy to help
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 18 Mar 2015, 15:07

AdmiralMemo wrote:OK, so my own question, which is specific to MtGO. I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that after the paper pre-release, the cards are legal in Standard (and other formats) on MtGO, even though they haven't been released on MtGO. Is this correct? The key point due to this is that DTK has 15 reprints. Seven of them were already legal in Standard and such due to being reprinted so recently. However, my question is regarding the legality of the other eight during that week or so.

(I really kind of want to know just how soon I can add Dragon Fodder to my MtGO Standard deck. :D)

I'm pretty sure they become legal on MTGO as of the MTGO pre-release, not the paper pre-release. But MTGO will tell you if the cards in your deck aren't Standard legal anyway.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 18 Mar 2015, 15:09

AdmiralMemo wrote:OK, so my own question, which is specific to MtGO. I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that after the paper pre-release, the cards are legal in Standard (and other formats) on MtGO, even though they haven't been released on MtGO. Is this correct?

My understanding is that the formats change on MtGO on the downtime before the release weekend... So the MTGO prereleases start April 3 with the official release April 6, but the format change will be during the downtime on March 31. So up until March 30, Standard is THS through FRF; then March 31-April 2, Standard is effectively THS through FRF plus those 8 additional cards; then April 3-5, Standard is THS through DTK but you can only get (non-reprint) DTK cards through prereleases (or trading with people who got them from prereleases); then from April 6 you can buy DTK product in the store.

I could be wrong... I only ever heard this second-hand, and it was a while ago so things may have changed.

It's more relevant when Standard is rotating... as the old block will leave Standard on the Tuesday, but the new cards won't be available until the Friday, meaning that for a few short days MtGO-Standard is only 4 sets (plus a handful of reprints).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 21 Mar 2015, 13:09

Can I sack a sidisi to a sidisi for Exploit or does the legend rule apply before hand? I assume the legend rule is a state based action and i dont know if that get's checked in the time between Sidisi resolving and her trigger going off.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 21 Mar 2015, 13:18

You can't sacrifice the same Sidisi to the same Sidisi. You could sacrifice the Sultai one to the Silumgar one, but you can't sac the Silumgar one to the Silumgar one.

The reason why is basically exactly what you mentioned. The legend rule is a SBA and you would put Sidisi into the graveyard as exploit would trigger in the first place.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 21 Mar 2015, 13:26

Not a judge, but pretty sure Legend rule is a SBA, so it'd happen just after Sidisi hits the table before the Exploit trigger even occurs. Or... I'm not 100% sure. The trigger might occur.

If the trigger occurs, then you get to select the other Sidisi for the Exploit trigger, then SBA occurs, and you sac one of them. If you sac the original Sidisi, the trigger tries to resolve and fizzles, due to having no target. If you sac the new Sidisi, then the trigger still has a target, so I think you'd be able to tutor... But since Exploit makes you sac the creature targeted, you lose both Sidisis in that one... You'd be paying 10 mana for a Diabolic Tutor... Doesn't seem efficient.

Let's get a real judge ruling on whether SBAs occur between a creature hitting the battlefield and ETB triggers. That makes the difference between "Doesn't work at all" and "inefficient Diabolic Tutor" here.

Edit: Some MtG judges in the chat are siding with the "10-mana Diabolic Tutor" side.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Kapol » 21 Mar 2015, 15:57

AdmiralMemo wrote:If the trigger occurs, then you get to select the other Sidisi for the Exploit trigger, then SBA occurs, and you sac one of them. If you sac the original Sidisi, the trigger tries to resolve and fizzles, due to having no target. If you sac the new Sidisi, then the trigger still has a target, so I think you'd be able to tutor... But since Exploit makes you sac the creature targeted, you lose both Sidisis in that one... You'd be paying 10 mana for a Diabolic Tutor... Doesn't seem efficient.


The problem there is that isn't how exploit works. Exploit doesn't target, and the creature you sac isn't chosen until resolution. Meaning it's impossible to 'target' either Sidisi in response to one entering the battlefield, and one of them will go away before you have a chance to sacrifice either.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 22 Mar 2015, 02:37

The order of events is:

  • Say you already control a Sidisi, Undead Vizier and you cast a second one.
  • Both players get a chance to respond to Sidisi.
  • Sidisi resolves, and enters the battlefield. Exploit triggers, but doesn't go onto the stack just yet.
  • SBAs are checked, and you have to choose which Sidisi you want to keep, and put the other into your graveyard.
  • The Exploit trigger goes onto the stack. It's not targeted, and you don't make any choices just yet.
  • Both players get a chance to respond to the trigger.
  • Exploit resolves. You may sac a creature, but you can't sac the Sidisi that you didn't choose to keep, as it's already gone. You can sac the Sidisi you did choose to keep (no matter which one that is... Exploit doesn't say "sacrifice another creature", it's just "sacrifice a creature").
  • If you do sacrifice a creature, then it gets a little complicated. If the Sidisi you chose to keep from the legend rule is the new one, then the other trigger will fire, and you'll get to tutor for a card. If the Sidisi you chose to keep is the old one, then you won't get to tutor for a card, because new-Sidisi isn't there to trigger (the "when Sidisi exploits a creature" part is a separate trigger, and the appropriate Sidisi needs to still be around for it to happen).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 26 Mar 2015, 08:40

the creatures from rally the ancestors get exiled at the next upkeep; if they leave play before the next upkeep should they go where there supposed to go?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Mar 2015, 08:57

Not a judge, but MtGO says yes. Whenever I've done it and creatures died prior to my upkeep, they went to the graveyard.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 26 Mar 2015, 10:59

Yes, the creatures returned to the battlefield with Rally the Ancestors will go to the graveyard if they die or wherever an effect sends them if it happens before the exile trigger on your upkeep
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 02 Apr 2015, 09:05

if i have a felhide spiritbinder and trigger the inspired in the untap step and make a indulgent tormentor dues the token copy's upkeep ability trigger or is it to lake because the inspired trigger happens in the upkeep not the untap step
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 02 Apr 2015, 11:48

No, the copied Tormentor trigger won't trigger because we will enter the battlefield in your upkeep, after the beginning of upkeep when his trigger is supposed to happen
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby chetoos » 09 Apr 2015, 06:20

Question: Do the new tuck rules also deal with the combo to phase out a commander as an equipment? Where you use soul sculptor to turn a commander into an enchantment, liquimetal coating to turn it into an artifact, bludgeon brawl so it's an equipment, then use a splintertwin'd vulshok battlemaster to have it equip that commander, then you phase it out with reality ripple, the commander is gone forever, as I am led to understand. If that's not the case, and the tuck rules allow the commander to go back to the command zone, that's my question. Also, would wish allow you to get it back, if it's technically outside the game?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 09 Apr 2015, 06:51

"If your commander would go into the library or your hand, you may choose to put it into the command zone." the rules change doesn't mention phasing so my guess is that it will work and the commander will be gone forever.

Wish effects wouldn't allow you to get it back. It's mentioned on gatherer below Living Wish
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby chetoos » 09 Apr 2015, 07:30

Next question: Could I go infinite with mycosynth lattice, bludgeon brawl, splinter twin, and vulshok battlemaster? Or does "enchanted creature" not just mean "creature this enchantment is attached to"?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Apr 2015, 07:45

Not a judge, but I'd say no, since the the Splinter Twin is EQUIPPED onto the newly-made Battlemaster, not enchanted onto it. Thus, it's giving the new Battlemaster +4/+0, not the ability from the enchantment.

It's still an Enchantment, still an Aura, but now it's also an Artifact and an Equipment. Because you're using the "equip" mechanic, it's equipped onto the creature, not enchanting it.

For another look at two different, but similar, mechanics interacting, see Manifest and Megamorph. Imagine you've manifested an Aven Sunstriker. Manifest says that you can turn it face-up for its mana cost: 1WW. Megamorph says you can turn it face-up for its Megamorph cost: 4W. If you choose to flip it up for 1WW, though, it does not get a +1/+1 counter on it. Even though it's a card with Megamorph that is turning face-up, it's not getting the counter because you didn't use the Megamorph mechanic.

Thus, similarly, your Splinter Twin is put onto the new Battlemaster via the equip mechanic, not the enchant mechanic.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Apr 2015, 08:03

Judge Question of my own:
Mycosynth Lattice and Bludgeon Brawl only makes everything on the battlefield and Artifact - Equipment, right? Thus, it would not be possible to cast Stoneforge Mystic and then search for any card in your library, right, nor equip any card onto it using its ability, right?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Gildan_Bladeborn » 09 Apr 2015, 09:11

AdmiralMemo wrote:Judge Question of my own:
Mycosynth Lattice and Bludgeon Brawl only makes everything on the battlefield and Artifact - Equipment, right? Thus, it would not be possible to cast Stoneforge Mystic and then search for any card in your library, right, nor equip any card onto it using its ability, right?

Not a judge myself but the answer to that question is definitely no - the lattice does impact cards not in play (so, the library), but the effect from that just turns everything colorless, things only become artifacts once they hit the battlefield; Bludgeon Brawl doesn't do anything at all to cards not on the battlefield. So since your library is just a colorless version of whatever it was prior to those 2 cards hitting the field, you can still only tutor up equipments that are actually equipments. Also worth noting, the Stoneforge Mystic's ability doesn't equip things to her, it puts them from your hand onto the battlefield.

chetoos wrote:Also, would wish allow you to get it back, if it's technically outside the game?
Your question was already answered but it's also worth pointing out that Wish effects don't actually work in Commander, unless everyone you're playing with is using the optional sideboard rules and playing with a sideboard.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 09 Apr 2015, 09:40

Yup, Gildan is right about the Mycosynth Lattice. But it is worth mentioning that lattice makes all cards that aren't on the battlefield, spells, and permanent colorless so you can basically use Ancient Stirring to put any card in your hand.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby chetoos » 09 Apr 2015, 11:08

do auras placed on the battlefield with an effect like Zur's allow you to override effects like shroud?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby LokiTheLiar » 09 Apr 2015, 12:09

Yes, because you don't choose target, because you don't cast it, you put it onto the battlefield.

303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a players control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesnt specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Auras enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 09 Apr 2015, 14:28

If i were to cast The Mimeoplasm and have it copy Prime Speaker Zegana and target Consuming aberration with the other part of the ability for the counters what happens?

Let's say there are 65 Cards in total from opponents graveyards and that the highest power I control is 8. Does mimeoplasm come in with 73 counters on it making me draw all those cards?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 09 Apr 2015, 16:19

chetoos wrote:Next question: Could I go infinite with mycosynth lattice, bludgeon brawl, splinter twin, and vulshok battlemaster? Or does "enchanted creature" not just mean "creature this enchantment is attached to"?

Actually, surprisingly enough, this seems to work. "Equipping" and "enchanting" are actually both words in the rules that refer to the same underlying mechanic, called "attaching"... so if you have an "Enchantment Artifact - Aura Equipment" and you attach that to a creature, that will count as both the "equipped creature" and the "enchanted creature", regardless of what method you use to attach it.

Some relevant rules:
303.4k An ability of a permanent that refers to the “enchanted [object or player]” refers to whatever object or player that permanent is attached to, even if the permanent with the ability isn’t an Aura.
301.5e An ability of a permanent that refers to the “equipped creature” refers to whatever creature that permanent is attached to, even if the permanent with the ability isn’t an Equipment.

That said, there are simpler ways to go infinite with Splinter Twin...

Gildan_Bladeborn wrote:Your question was already answered but it's also worth pointing out that Wish effects don't actually work in Commander, unless everyone you're playing with is using the optional sideboard rules and playing with a sideboard.

Well, the "wishes can only get cards from your sideboard" thing is a tournament rule, so if you're playing a casual game outside a tournament, that rule doesn't apply by default, and you can get any cards from your entire collection. Of course, if you're playing a casual game outside a tournament, you can house-rule it however you want, and people who are familiar with the tournament scene will often want to play with the rule in effect...

ElFuzzy wrote:If i were to cast The Mimeoplasm and have it copy Prime Speaker Zegana and target Consuming aberration with the other part of the ability for the counters what happens?

Let's say there are 65 Cards in total from opponents graveyards and that the highest power I control is 8. Does mimeoplasm come in with 73 counters on it making me draw all those cards?

Yep, that's exactly what happens, you would be non-optionally drawing 74 cards in that situation. Enjoy!
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