Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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lazylantern
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby lazylantern » 19 Sep 2015, 21:01

JUDGE? If I used Rite of Replication (Kicked) on a Prophet of Kruphix, do I get 6 triggers of untap on my opponent's turn and can stack all the mana between each of them to flash cast a GIANT spell?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Atifexe » 19 Sep 2015, 21:09

As per the Gatherer ruling pertaining to multiple Prophets, the answer is no:
Ruling wrote:Controlling more than one Prophet of Kruphix doesn’t allow you to untap any creature or land more than once during a single untap step.


Additionally, players do not receive priority during the Untap step, meaning you cannot tap lands for mana, cast spells, or activate abilities. The first point during the turn at which this is possible is the Upkeep step.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 19 Sep 2015, 22:09

Prophet of Kruphix's ability changes the rules of the game, so you can untap during other players's untap steps, but it isn't a trigger at all. You can't respond to it. If you're interested, it's what's called a "Turn Based Action", something special you do at a certain point in the turn.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby lazylantern » 19 Sep 2015, 22:10

Thank you, I wanted to make sure I was not missing a combo before writing my article.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 22 Sep 2015, 09:13

When is banding declared for blocks? Could I put the token Brimaz poops out in a band with him and force all combat damage on it? I think the token shows up late for that play
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby steric hindrance » 22 Sep 2015, 09:25

Banding isn't "declared" on blocks; it just applies during the combat damage step. From the comp rules:
702.21j. During the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is being blocked by a creature with banding, or by both a [quality] creature with "bands with other [quality]" and another [quality] creature, the defending player (rather than the active player) chooses how the attacking creature's damage is assigned. That player can divide that creature's combat damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking it. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 510.1c.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 23 Sep 2015, 11:48

So if I give Brimaz banding with Baton of Morale after his token has been created I could declare the band of him and it and then force all damage onto the token?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 23 Sep 2015, 16:19

Even more interestingly... if I have Cathedral of Serra, so that Brimaz has "bands with other legendary creatures", and block with Brimaz and some other legend, then I can still force all the damage onto the cat token? Even though it isn't legendary?

Goddammit banding...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SixFootTurkey » 23 Sep 2015, 18:00

That's correct phlip. And that right there (banding working differently for attacking or blocking) is probably the main reason they gave it the axe.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 23 Sep 2015, 19:12

Banding was one of the few things that was less confusing under pre m10 rules. Because that's how damage was assigned before anyway. All banding did was change who gets to do the assigning, and allow you to group attackers together.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 23 Sep 2015, 19:23

"Bands with other" must be the mechanic with the worst ratio of lines of rules in the CR vs number of cards that actually use the mechanic... let alone words spent on rules threads and IRCs over time...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby ElFuzzy » 24 Sep 2015, 06:06

I find it endlessly amusing that I'm not ordering both Cathedral and Baton of morale for my Catmmander Deck.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 27 Sep 2015, 17:07

So what's the protocol if you're a rules adviser and the store doesn't have a judge so you're sort of the best they have but people (okay, one guy) keep arguing with you about the rules because "that's not how I read that card"?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby JackSlack » 27 Sep 2015, 17:47

I'd say you fetch the TO.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 27 Sep 2015, 17:50

In the first of the cases, the TO referred the guy to me, so that would get awkward! What I did the first time was explain it again in detail in case I just hadn't explained it thoroughly and caused confusion the first time. The second time I asked him if it was okay if I bring it up on my phone to physically show him the rule because he indicated that he didn't believe my explanation.

ETA: The first rules question was about Undergrowth Champion in combat, and whether the +1/+1 counter is removed before or after the Champion deals its damage to the other creature.

The second one was whether 1) he could sacrifice Felidar Cub with no legal target for its ability, and 2) whether doing this in response to Clutch of Currents for its Awaken cost targeting the Cub and a land would cause the land to not be awakened.

I wouldn't actually mind hearing a judge explain both of those just in case I did get part of it wrong and he was right to argue with me. I might have given him misleading information (I know parts were for sure correct because I looked them up, but I might have communicated something badly or said a wrong thing in the process) in which case I owe him an apology.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 27 Sep 2015, 18:10

In the absence of someone else taking the role, the head judge job falls by default to the TO.

In an ideal world, the TO would know the rules (or, if they don't, recognise that and actually name someone else as judge)... in a less ideal world, the TO would at least be able to come over, make a ruling one way or the other (which would hopefully be correct) and at least let the game continue, and be "if you really want to continue arguing this, at least let it wait until after the game".

Failing that (if the TO's too lazy or just doesn't want to get involved) and you need to actually convince your opponent on how the rules work... MTG Familiar is a useful thing to have, since it has easy access to both the Gatherer rulings, and a searchable CR. Unfortunately in this case, though, only one of those three questions actually has a Gatherer ruling (I'm surprised there isn't one for the Undergrowth Champion one). But yeah... if you get to the point of digging out references to the CR in the middle of a game, several things have gone wrong... but I don't really know a better way out of that situation once you're there.

(Also, I'm sure you don't need to know the answers, but in case anyone else reading this is curious, the answers are: After, No and No, respectively.)

[edit]
Just saw the bit about wanting an explanation just in case... so, the short version:
  • In combat, both creatures assign and then deal damage simultaneously. As that damage is dealt, a +1/+1 counter is removed from the Champion, but by that time the amount of damage it's dealing is already locked in. Unless of course the creature the Champion is in combat with has first strike, which would obviously change things.
  • You can't activate the ability without a legal target. If there are no legal targets, you can't just sacrifice it for no value.
  • When Clutch of Currents is cast for its Awaken cost, it's a spell with two targets (because it does target the land you're awaking). If either of those targets is still legal when it goes to resolve, it will still resolve and do everything it can (in this case, not bouncing the creature, but still awaking the land). It'll only be countered if all its targets are illegal.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 27 Sep 2015, 18:27

That is in fact exactly what I told him so that is encouraging. I was very confident yesterday when this happened but then when I was backtracking over it today I was suddenly thinking "I know the general thrust of what I said was correct (that is, I know I correctly told him after, no and no) but maybe I explained the 'why' of it all wrong".
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby korvys » 27 Sep 2015, 18:43

There's a tricky interaction with awaken cards, that has been mentioned on Reddit, and on LR, but the guy sounds like he has it backwards.

If you have something like Coastal Discovery, normally, it has no targets, you draw cards. If you awaken, it has 1 target, the land, and now if you kill the land in response, it's a 1 target spell with no valid targets and you don't get to draw the cards. So, basically, if you can stop the awaken part, you stop the rest of the spell. But stopping the rest of the spell doesn't stop the awaken part (because it targets separately).

I've found this pretty common among the wannabe-pro type players. The sort who tend to top FNM, but fail when they go to GPs, etc, but get a big ego anyway (am I on the right track, Duckay?). They tend to know a lot of rulings, because they are on reddit, listen to podcasts, etc, but they don't know the rules. So they mis-apply the rules tips they've learned.
Last edited by korvys on 27 Sep 2015, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 27 Sep 2015, 18:47

Actually, no. Though I do know the type you're talking about and definitely know people like that (I overheard a guy bragging that his sealed deck was obviously better and his assessment of card quality higher because he listened to the set review; so did I, buddy, but that doesn't mean I have infinite knowledge of how the meta is going to shake out), this is a different kind of guy. He's the classic has been playing Magic for years and years but only really rolls out for prereleases and the odd FNM so doesn't keep up to date on rules.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Aaron9797 » 27 Sep 2015, 19:12

if i have a land that is already a creature and cast earthen arms for its awaken cost and put both the 2 +1/+1 counters and the 4 awaken counters on it. will i get two additional counters if hardened scales is on the battlefield
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby phlip » 27 Sep 2015, 19:21

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the answer is "yes"... it's two separate instances of putting +1/+1 counters on your creature, so Hardened Scales should apply to both.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SixFootTurkey » 27 Sep 2015, 20:49

Yes, you will end up with 8 extra +1/+1 counters on your land; you follow the wording on the spell in order, and there are two distinct sections of the spell.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Phi » 28 Sep 2015, 00:31

Opponents casts Banishing Light, exiling my Narset planeswalker. The next turn I cast my own Banishing Light, Banishing their Banishing Light. Does Narset return to the battlefield? If she does, do the loyalty counters reset?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby AdmiralMemo » 28 Sep 2015, 01:24

Yes and yes.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Duckay » 28 Sep 2015, 01:24

When Banishing Light leaves the battlefield, whatever is exiled under it returns to the battlefield. So, yes, Narset comes back, and enters with 6 loyalty, same as she would if she entered the battlefield from anywhere.

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