Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

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Drunk On Mystery
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 12 Oct 2011, 12:15

So a Garruk, Primal Hunter and a Jace Mindsculpter are fine, but a Garruk, Primal Hunter and Garruk Wildspeaker is not. That's what I was figuring.

Any answer to my Clone question, or did I just miss it?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 12 Oct 2011, 12:38

Drunk On Mystery wrote:So a Garruk, Primal Hunter and a Jace Mindsculpter are fine, but a Garruk, Primal Hunter and Garruk Wildspeaker is not.


Exactly right.

And sorry about the Clone. Completely missed that, so here goes:

Short Answer: Yes. It triggers ETB trigers.
Long Answer: Clone, like the many variations, makes an exact copy of whatever it is cloning as it enters the battlefield, which you can take to mean immediately before it enters the battlefield. This means it will trigger the enter the battlefield triggers of itself and any other abilities that would trigger on the new characteristics.

When it comes to copy effects you almost always treat the Clone as though it was the same physical card as the thing it copied.

Disclaimer: Copy effects are a little more confusing when dealing with face down cards (Morph cards), flipped cards (from Kamigawa) and Double Faced Cards. But in most other cases it really is very nearly a straight up carbon copy.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 12 Oct 2011, 12:45

Ooooh, follow up question:

My opponent plays a Werewolf. It transforms.

I clone it. Does my clone enter play as the already transformed version? And am I correct in assuming that the transform rules apply as normal to my clone?
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dackwards d
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 12 Oct 2011, 12:48

When you say "which you can take to mean" does that mean you can choose to not trigger the ETB effect? Like, suppose you cloned a phyrexian dreadnaught, would you be able to choose to not have to sacrifice monsters?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Drunk On Mystery » 12 Oct 2011, 12:49

Also: Thanks for the thread, SilPho. It's proven very useful. I'm sure everyone would agree with me that it's definitely appreciated.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 12 Oct 2011, 12:58

@Drunk On Mystery
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: Clone only copies the currently visible side of a DFC. If it would transform it instead does nothing. This is because a DFC only ever has one set of characteristics for Clone to copy, the other face of the card is not something Clone takes notice of.

Follow up: This differs to the flip cards. Cloning a Tok-Tok, Volcano Born gets you an Akki Lavarunner instead. I told you it can get confusing.

Edit: And you're very welcome :D I'm glad people are making use of it.

@dackwards d
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: When I said "which you can take to mean" I meant it as a way to better understand what the card does. The decision about which card to clone is technically made just before Clone arrives, which means it enters the battlefield as a complete copy of the card in question it doesn't exist as a Clone and then change to something else.

So in the case of Phyrexian Dreadnaught you will need to sacrifice some stuff. (Stifle notwithstanding).
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 12 Oct 2011, 13:06

Yeah, I figured as much. Would have been awesome though... And I second the thank you, btw. This thread has been very informative.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby DuelLadyS » 12 Oct 2011, 13:26

I third the thank you... this thread is practically a godsend for me. I dunno if it's just becuase of my former status as a Yugioh judge, or if I just 'look the type', but I tend to get defaulted as the go-to person for rulings when my circle starts up new TCGs, and Magic is proving no exception. Not that I mind... except when my games get interrupted constantly to go moderate someone else's match.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Trymantha » 14 Oct 2011, 13:03

lets say i have an opalescence and a humilty?


follow up 2 opalescences and a humilty?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 14 Oct 2011, 13:44

For those not in the know, Opalescence and Humility are two cards famous for creating very bizarre rules scenarios. Feel free to ponder over it yourself but don't worry if you can't work it out. Most judges don't know this stuff and never need to, please don't let this put you off becoming a judge if you are considering it.

With that said, I shall do my best to answer these.

Short Answer: Don't be a dick :P

Long Answer: With Opalescence and Humility on the battlefield all creatures and non-aura enchantments (except Opalescence if only one exists) are simply vanilla 1/1 creatures. One might think that this creates an infinite loop since Humility (as a creature) causes itself to lose the ability making it a creature and thus ends up with the ability again etc, but no. Once the effect of Humility begins to take effect it will simply follow through to completion, once and only once.

Very long answer: It all comes down to the infamous Layers system. Opalescence applies in Layer 4 (Type changing effects). Humility applies in Layers 6 (Ability changing effects) and 7b (Setting power and toughness). As we work through the layers (in numerical order) the first time this interaction matters is during layer 4, at which point Humility is turned into a creature. When we then get to Layer 6 we remove the abilities from all creatures. This does remove Humilty's own ability, but since we've started applying its effects we will complete its instructions; this is why all of the creatures, Humility included, still have their power and toughness set to 1/1 even though Humility doesn't technically have the ability that does that at this point.
Even with more copies of Opalescence and Humility this interaction stays pretty much the same. Opalescence continues to apply first, in layer 4, so when 2 or more are present they will all effect one-another; they all become creatures. When multiple Humility's are around the effect is the same but how it is achieved is worth noting: When the first Humility starts applying its effect it will strip the abilities from the others, so those abilities do not technically apply but the effect they would have is still happening thanks to the first one. Basically, all creatures and non-aura enchantments are vanilla 1/1 creatures.

There. Isn't Magic fun?

DISCLAIMER: There is a lot to bear in mind here so it is possible that I've misspoken. If you ever build a deck that for some reason has to rely on multiple copies of these cards you may want to seek 100% clarification, but I am sure on the interaction of a single copy of each.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 14 Oct 2011, 15:39

SilPho wrote:If you ever build a deck that for some reason has to rely on multiple copies of these cards you may want to seek 100% clarification


Or possibly seek to have your head examined... :P
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Avistew » 15 Oct 2011, 04:34

If I equip a card with an artifact that gives it, say, +2/+2 and an artifact that double the damage it inflicts, do I calculate the result based on the order I equipped them in, or does one of the two take precedence over the other (as in, always double first or always double last)?
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 15 Oct 2011, 05:25

I'm going to assume that we're talking about a 1/1 creature equipped with something like a Vulshok Morningstar (for the +2/+2) and a Fireshrieker, which gives the creature double strike.

Short Answer: The 3/3 creatures deals damage twice during combat, which means 6 damage.
Long Answer: The order the equipment was applied (known as timestamp order) doesn't matter here. This is easy to imagine with double strike since the damage is dealt in two very distinct steps, it isn't actually dealing all 6 in one go.

Bonus: However, if an effect such as Furnace of Rath was on the battlefield here we still have a 3/3 creature dealing 3 points of damage during two separate combat steps but each is doubled when dealt. The furnace will double each attack up to 6, resulting in two attacks worth 6 points of damage each. Not bad from a creature with 1/1 printed in the corner.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Avistew » 15 Oct 2011, 06:18

I was actually thinking of something like this one http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... eid=222196
But I guess it's calculated every time, meaning that it's doubled after the other equipment is taken into account.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 15 Oct 2011, 10:04

How did I miss that? No matter, the other equipment affects the power of the creature all the time so the doubling effect will always happen at the end.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 15 Oct 2011, 19:56

Just a couple of small questions:

If multiple creatures block an Ashmouth Hound, does it deal the 1 damage to each of them?

If a spell or ability sacrifices a creature in order to damage another creature (I had a specific example in mind when I started writing this but I've forgotten the creature now, so we'll just say like the red spell Fling) and the target gains +1/+1 tokens when a creautre dies (such as if it is equipped with the Blade of the Bloodchief), would the second creature get the tokens before or after it takes the damage?

How do negative counters (damage from infect creatures, the ability from a Skinrender) affect creatures with Invulnerable if they are enough to bring them down to 0 toughness?

Similarly, how are Planeswalkers affected by negative counters?

Does infect affect creatures that are immune to abilities?

Similarly, does proliferate count as targeting the creature with the counters or the counters themselves? For example, a creature has hexproof and a +1/+1 counter, would it's controller be able to proliferate that counter?

(OK, my original 3 has grown a little...)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Trymantha » 16 Oct 2011, 00:46

dackwards d wrote:Just a couple of small questions:

If multiple creatures block an Ashmouth Hound, does it deal the 1 damage to each of them?

If a spell or ability sacrifices a creature in order to damage another creature (I had a specific example in mind when I started writing this but I've forgotten the creature now, so we'll just say like the red spell Fling) and the target gains +1/+1 tokens when a creautre dies (such as if it is equipped with the Blade of the Bloodchief), would the second creature get the tokens before or after it takes the damage?

How do negative counters (damage from infect creatures, the ability from a Skinrender) affect creatures with Invulnerable if they are enough to bring them down to 0 toughness?

Similarly, how are Planeswalkers affected by negative counters?

Does infect affect creatures that are immune to abilities?

Similarly, does proliferate count as targeting the creature with the counters or the counters themselves? For example, a creature has hexproof and a +1/+1 counter, would it's controller be able to proliferate that counter?

(OK, my original 3 has grown a little...)


1.yes ashmouth hound will deal 1 damage to each creature blocking/ blocked by it

2.this one depends if sacrificing is part of the cost it the creature would get the +1/+1 counter before damage is dealt

3. if a creature has 0 or less toughness it dies even if it has indestructible (having 0 or lower toughness is different from lots of damage being dealt)

4. planeswalkers are considered other players(silpho correct me if im wrong) and are not creatures if dealt damage by a creature with infect or weither they remove that many loyalty counters instead(this is assuming you havent done the 5 card combo to make all planeswalkers creature).

4b. Gideon is a different matter, if you can get a -1/-1 counter on him while he is a creature it will stay on him even when he is not a creature and will effect him like a normal creature(if you get six it will kill him if he is a creature) just remember he prevents all damage that would be dealt to him

5. not sure on this one (im guessing it still works)

6. you can proliferate things that have hexproof as it does not target you just choose(the key word to look out for in situations like these is target)



uhhh i think ive got them all right but if silpho says im wrong go with what he says
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Avistew » 16 Oct 2011, 00:47

dackwards d wrote:If multiple creatures block an Ashmouth Hound, does it deal the 1 damage to each of them?


Yes. The way I read it, it deal one damage to any creature that blocks it or that it blocks. This being said it has only 1 toughness and doesn't have trample so unless it's equipped or enchanted you wouldn't need to block it with several creatures.

dackwards d wrote:Does infect affect creatures that are immune to abilities?


Infect isn't an ability, it's a mechanic. Mechanics aren't covered by hexproof, otherwise hexproof creatures would be immune to things such as first strike or flying, which would make them ridiculously powerful. However, if the creature that has infect also has an ability (say, tap to inflict one damage to target player, or whatever) that damage, which would be infect damage, won't be dealt if the creature or player is hexproof.

Also, from the Magic website: "Damage from a source with infect affects planeswalkers normally."

dackwards d wrote:Similarly, does proliferate count as targeting the creature with the counters or the counters themselves? For example, a creature has hexproof and a +1/+1 counter, would it's controller be able to proliferate that counter?


The description goes "pick as many creatures with counters of them as you want and add a counter of a type already present there". Since you need to pick the creatures, I would say that's what you're targeting.
However I'm not sure if proliferate is an ability.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Avistew » 16 Oct 2011, 00:51

Trymantha wrote:4b. Gideon is a different matter, if you can get a -1/-1 counter on him while he is a creature it will stay on him even when he is not a creature and will effect him like a normal creature(if you get six it will kill him if he is a creature) just remember he prevents all damage that would be dealt to him


Actually

Card Description wrote:0: Until end of turn, Gideon Jura becomes a 6/6 Human Soldier creature that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.


Not only does it say he's still a planeswalker (and they're not affected by infect the same way), it also prevents all damage that would be dealt to him. So basically, when Gideon is a human, it does nothing to him.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Oct 2011, 01:30

Ok, just to fully summarise the last few points of discussion and give some definitive answers:

1) If multiple creatures block an Ashmouth Hound, does it deal the 1 damage to each of them?
Yes, Ashmouth Hound's ability will trigger once for each creature blocking it (or blocked by it), that damage will be dealt before regular combat damage. (Give him deathtouch and he's pretty dangerous)

2) If a spell or ability sacrifices a creature in order to damage another creature (eg: Fling) would the second creature get the tokens before or after it takes the damage?
As Trymantha said, as long as the sacrifice is part of casting the spell (it is in Fling's case but isn't in the case of Rupture for example). This is because if the creature dies during resolution of the damage spell the trigger won't go onto the stack until damage has been dealt.

3) How do negative counters (damage from infect creatures, the ability from a Skinrender) affect creatures with Indestructible if they are enough to bring them down to 0 toughness?
Reducing a creature's toughness to 0 or less is not "lethal damage", hence Indestructible can't prevent the creature being "destroyed" this way.

4) Similarly, how are Planeswalkers affected by negative counters?
Planeswalkers are planeswalkers, not other players (though many similarities exist). This means that the infect rule that says "Deals damage to players in the form of poison counters" doesn't apply to planeswalkers. They simply take regular damage. If a planeswalker somehow gains a -1/-1 counter by some other means it will remain on the card but not have any effect unless the planeswalker becomes a creature.

4b) Gideon Jura in creature form could have -1/-1 counters placed on to him by effects such as Contagion Clasp but because of the final part of his ultimate ability "Prevent all damage" he won't be vulnerable to infect or wither under normal conditions.

5) Does infect affect creatures that are immune to abilities?
It depends what you mean by "immune to abilities". Here's a quick rundown of what will happen with infect if the opposing creature has the following abilities:
Protection from (Attacking creature): Damage is prevented. No counters.
Hexproof: Creature is not being targeted. Infect works normally.
- Unless, as mentioned earlier, some targeted ability is being used.
Prevent all damage dealt to this creature: Same as protection. No damage, no counters.

6) Similarly, does proliferate count as targeting the creature with the counters or the counters themselves?
Proliferate does not target anything. Let's go back to Contagion Clasp. The enter the battlefield ability here explicitly says "target", whereas the rules for Proliferate (Both in brief on the cards and in depth in the comprehensive rules) never use the word "target". Any time that you are told to choose something that's another clue that you're not targeting.

Warning - Extra technical details:
Infect is an ability. It is a static ability rather than an activated or triggered ability. The game itself has no concept of "Mechanics", that is a word used to describe certain aspects of the game.
Proliferate, however, is not an ability, it is a Keyword Action, much like Shuffle, Draw, Scry or Regenerate. These terms are more like verbs to describe what an ability does rather than nouns to say what it is. For added complexity, Indestructible doesn't fit under any of these categories, that is just a rule.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Geoff_B » 16 Oct 2011, 03:49

And this used to be such a simple game...
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby SilPho » 16 Oct 2011, 06:42

Simple? When? :P
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby dackwards d » 16 Oct 2011, 07:32

Cool, thanks. I'm teaching a friend how to play and all of those things came up the other day, so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't teaching her wrong. I think the only thing I actually messed up was question 2, and I erred in her favour anyway :)
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Avistew » 16 Oct 2011, 10:05

Thanks for the explanation on abilities. I thought abilities were something you did actively or something, and that Infect was just another keyword.
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Re: Magic the Gathering: Ask a Judge

Postby Trymantha » 16 Oct 2011, 12:24

when attacking a person who also has a planeswalker when do you actully declare who is attacking what(normally we all do it during declare attackers step but i dont know the exact rules)?

if possible could you post the relevant rules quote aswell that would be awesome
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