Asthanius wrote:If that's true, then the enchantment needs to be worded differently. As it stands, spells are just targeted as if they had power and toughness, but don't actually have either characteristic. For it to work the way you want it to, you need to say that spells count as creatures with power and toughness equal to their converted mana cost.
This brings up a few questions:
1) Does this mean that you can sacrifice a spell on the stack? Nivmagus Elemental is the closest to that effect that I've seen, and you exile the spell, not sacrifice it.
2) What happens if I cast a spell and an opponent flashes in Ixidron? Can you turn a spell on the stack face-down?
3) What if I cast Delver of Secrets and, while it's on the stack, cast Moonmist? Will Delver enter the battlefield transformed?
4) Can I tap a spell on the stack?
5) Can I target an artifact spell with Go for the Throat? Or does an artifact spell count as an artifact creature? And if so, how do you explain that? Do you have to say that artifact spells are artifact creatures and enchantment spells are enchantment creatures?
5a) Does that mean Darksteel Forge makes your artifact spells indestructible?
6) Does this make spells count as permanents?
These are good questions about interactions that I was looking for. Here's how it works in my head: The spells themselves are still spells overall, but can be are targeted and counted as creatures. However, they are a bit amorphous in that they don't really exist as creatures only that the scope of spells and abilites have been expanded to include them. Here's how I'd answer each question:
1) Yes, if you have are targeted by something that causes you to sacrifice a creature, you may sacrifice a spell on the stack instead. Additionally, you may use a spell to pay a cost in the same manner.
2) Spells on the stack only have one state (Let's just call it "cast" for now since I'm not sure if terminology is defined) and cannot be turned face down, tapped, untapped or otherwise. So they wouldn't add towards things that counted those other states: i.e. "for each facedown/tapped/untapped creature you control..."
This also means they can't make use of abilities granted: i.e. "Creatures you control gain "T: Deal one damage to target creature or player."" For the sake of clarity and making it less complex, we should say that they can't use any abilities given to them, only can be counted towards other abilities that don't require a state like in Massive Raid.
3 & 4) This goes along with the second one in that it wouldn't change state.
5) Go For the Throat would not work on an artifact spell as I would treat them in the same way Artifact Blast works. This card can only target artifact spells, so I assume that spells retain their properties (color, supertypes, etc.) as they get cast. So while Go For the Throat would normally be able to target the spell, just like a creature it would be an "artifact creature" while on the stack so would be an invalid target. The same would go for enchantments. Now, the Artifact Blast spell is pretty old so the rules may have changed since then and I could be unaware so if anyone knows that's the case please let me know the proper ruling now.
5a) Darksteel Forge wouldn't affect things that it doesn't already affect. I think that goes along with 6.
6) Spells are not permanent since I believe that's referring directly to things on the battlefield but that does bring up an interesting question about non targeting effects. I'm reading through the comprehensive rules and I don't see anything about this interaction. For questions 5, I'd apply rule 405.4 "Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it." But to me that would mean that Darksteel Forge would also affect Artifact spells on the stack, but I imagine that its wording is shorthand for "Artifact permanents you control are indestructible."
In light of these questions here's how I'd change the card wording:
Grasp the Unreal (3)
When spells are put on the stack, they gain power and toughness equal to their mana cost, become Creature Spells in addition to their other types, and gain "Spells or abilities that have effects or costs that target, affect or count creatures controlled by a player, may apply those effects to this spell instead or in addition to other creatures."
If a spell would be destroyed, exiled or have it's toughness become 0 or less, it is countered instead and placed in the graveyard.
Spells may not be tapped, untapped, turned facedown, faceup or otherwise have its position state changed in anyway.
Hopefully that's a little closer to what I'm trying to get at here? Let me know if it makes more sense this way or not.