The Magic Venting Thread

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
User avatar
jkefka
Posts: 244
Joined: 28 Oct 2013, 07:08
First Video: Does Desert Bus count? Feed dump if not

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby jkefka » 01 Jun 2014, 19:10

At PAX east I sorted something out with an opponent (a quirk involving fight and double-strike) and we were both pretty sure we knew what the deal was but called over a judge just to make 100% sure as it was game 3 of the final round of a draft. It's just an assurance thing, if you have access to the judge you might as well be 100% sure you're doing it right when there's any kind of uncertainty.
When the upkeep takes longer than the main phase, I know I've done my job well.
User avatar
JQuill
Posts: 107
Joined: 04 Feb 2013, 22:39
First Video: MTGO Academy Draft

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby JQuill » 04 Jun 2014, 18:09

Time for some venting courtesy of MTGO user Jaguar5555 (not a fan of calling people out, unless they are total jerks like this person). So I join an Innistrad flashback swiss draft (I wasn't playing back when it was out so I didn't want to jump in an 8-4). I drafted a pretty sweet mono-white aggressive deck, no real bombs but just a ton of 2 and 3 drops and a few tricks and removal spells. First round I play this Jaguar5555 and game 1 I win when they didn't get any red mana. At that point they offered up a few comments about me being lucky etc., but nothing that bad. Game 2 they play a turn 4 Falkenrath Aristocrat, I block it forcing them to sac their only other creature. Next turn I slam a Slayer of the Wicked to kill it, which of course brings out plenty of salt from them.

Next turn they slam a Bloodgift Demon (yeah the person calling me out for being lucky just went turn 4 into turn 5 bombs). They attack with it next turn and I flash in a Hollowhenge Spirit to remove it from combat. Now they start to get nasty calling me a "fat neckbeard" and such. They go on to win that game and then in game 3 he slams the same 2 bombs on turns 4 and 5 and I still nearly win (I had lethal on board but forgot to play a 6th land prior to attacks so I could cast and flashback a Rally the Peasants).

I ended up more upset at missing a win (the ultimate way to get back at people like this) than anything they said, but I still got the satisfaction of blocking and then reporting them. And managed to win the next 2 rounds to end on a winning note. One of the few times I ever had to report someone, I'm fairly lenient with such things, but this person went way beyond just being salty.
User avatar
Dix
Posts: 274
Joined: 26 Nov 2007, 00:43
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Fort Lewis, WA
Contact:

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Dix » 04 Jun 2014, 19:52

JQuill wrote:Time for some venting courtesy of MTGO user Jaguar5555 (not a fan of calling people out, unless they are total jerks like this person). So I join an Innistrad flashback swiss draft (I wasn't playing back when it was out so I didn't want to jump in an 8-4). I drafted a pretty sweet mono-white aggressive deck, no real bombs but just a ton of 2 and 3 drops and a few tricks and removal spells. First round I play this Jaguar5555 and game 1 I win when they didn't get any red mana. At that point they offered up a few comments about me being lucky etc., but nothing that bad. Game 2 they play a turn 4 Falkenrath Aristocrat, I block it forcing them to sac their only other creature. Next turn I slam a Slayer of the Wicked to kill it, which of course brings out plenty of salt from them.

Next turn they slam a Bloodgift Demon (yeah the person calling me out for being lucky just went turn 4 into turn 5 bombs). They attack with it next turn and I flash in a Hollowhenge Spirit to remove it from combat. Now they start to get nasty calling me a "fat neckbeard" and such. They go on to win that game and then in game 3 he slams the same 2 bombs on turns 4 and 5 and I still nearly win (I had lethal on board but forgot to play a 6th land prior to attacks so I could cast and flashback a Rally the Peasants).

I ended up more upset at missing a win (the ultimate way to get back at people like this) than anything they said, but I still got the satisfaction of blocking and then reporting them. And managed to win the next 2 rounds to end on a winning note. One of the few times I ever had to report someone, I'm fairly lenient with such things, but this person went way beyond just being salty.



The salt. Its real.

But seriously, how can you curve out into a turn 4 and turn 5 bomb TWICE and still get pissed and say someone else was lucky. People... ugh. Frustrating.
Desert Bus 1,2,3,4,5,6,and 9 Chat mod
Desert Bus 007 and 8 Onsite Chat Mod
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Lord Hosk
Posts: 6587
Joined: 07 Dec 2011, 08:30
First Video: Checkpoint: Into the breach
Location: Half and inch below the knuckle of the ring finger. MI

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Lord Hosk » 11 Jun 2014, 19:32

I played against a very aggressive player tonight. It was uncomfortable.

He had the Chariot of Victory down, played had Goldenhide Ox down with the chariot equipped to it. with 7 mana. He played Thassa's emissary down on it, I said "on main phase I play Griptide"

Now to me, I meant "On my response time at the end of your main phase" he took it as a response to thassa's emissary being cast and he tapped his last mana to equip chariot. I said "no you cant equipping is a sorcery you cant respond with a equip" he said "no you didnt wait until I declared attackers. We went back and forth and he was insistent and continued to be aggressive in pressing, that I dont get a response at the end of his main phase. So I called judge.

I explained what I said and when I said it, he said that I cast it in response.

The judge asked what I said and I said again "on main phase I play Griptide" and explained what I meant. The judge said "I understand what you mean and you (opponent) are wrong he does get a response trigger at the end of your main phase, but because you didnt say "end of main phase" Im going to rule that you did it on his part of the main phase in response to the casting, you should have just waited until he declared attacker then it would have been more clear"

so he had a 3/3 haste and another 3/3 something or other on the board I was at 3 life with one blocker.

BULL CRAP!

What do you do when the only judge who is the TO makes the wrong call.

I ended up winning with a 3-1 and that guy was my only loss but it really ticks me off that he got away with that.
Beware Bering Crystal Bears, Bearing Crystals. (Especially if the crystals they are bearing are, themselves, Bering Crystal Bears.) -Old, Stupid Proverb

[–]Graham_LRR
You hear that Khoo? We're almost better than the comic!
User avatar
Duckay
Posts: 3706
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 00:57
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: Central Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Duckay » 11 Jun 2014, 19:40

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but that isn't how I understood priority in the main phase working. If he says "I pass priority", directly or implicitly, and you take an action in his main phase, I understood that because it was still his main phase he can continue to cast sorcery speed things if he wishes after that resolves, as he will gain priority again in response to your action, and then after your spell has resolved, before the phase ends. (Ie. you both must pass priority without action before the phase ends). Hence why it is usually better to wait until beginning of combat step or declare attackers in order to do that.

Am I wrong here?
User avatar
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Kapol » 11 Jun 2014, 19:46

(Editing out since it was explained better by someone else)
Last edited by Kapol on 11 Jun 2014, 20:11, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby korvys » 11 Jun 2014, 20:00

I'm sorry to say, Hosk, he was correct. If you acted in his main phase (and I realise that's not what you were trying to do, but it's what you said), even if you didn't cast it in response to the creature, then once Griptide has resolved, he is still in his main phase and he can play sorceries, creatures, activate equip, etc.

I'm putting this in here, cause it might not be what you want to hear, but if you'd like to know the technical details of phases and passing priority, read on:
A more thorough explaination... - Click to Expand
In most phases/steps, the active play gets priority. They can do something, or they can pass, and the non-active player gets priorty. If both players pass, and there is nothing on the stack, the phase/step ends. If either player does something, the active player gets priority again, then the non-active player. If both pass, the top thing on the stack resolved, and the players get priority again.

In this case, your opponent has cast a spell. You could have responded here, or you could have let that resolve. But even if you let it resolve, there is still a point where he has to pass priority, and so do you, in the Main Phase. By saying "in your main phase" you have declared that your action is being done still in his main phase. This means you haven't both passed priority with nothing on the stack, which means the phase hasn't ended, and he gets priority again, and can do main phase things (like equip)

There is a point after the main phase, but before attackers are declared called the Beginning of Combat Step. On MTGO, there is a stop here by default (A stop in MTGO is basically a thing that says "Unlike all of the other points, I might want to do something here, so don't automatically pass my priority for me"). If you cast your spell there, he can't go back to his main phase but hasn't declared his attackers yet.

To do this, I would say "At the beginning of combat, before attackers, I ... <cast griptide, etc>


Unfortunately, in Magic, [some] words have a very specific, technical meaning, and Main Phase is one of them.

Of course, there's more going on here. While your opponent may be passionately defending his position, if he is getting aggressive about it, that is not appropriate and you should call a judge anyway.

Also, if you disagree with the judge, there's a few things you can do, though none of them would likely help here. Ask to speak to the head judge if there is one. If there is not, or the head judge upholds the ruling, you will have to continue with the game. However, most judges will be happy to speak to you after the game about the ruling, and try to explain the situation, as long as they are not busy.

Judges are human too, and can make mistakes. If you think one is wrong, and you confirm this here, or with another judge maybe, feel free to discuss this with them the next time you see them. Most judges would rather learn from their mistakes, so they don't make them in the future, though it doesn't solve your particular problem.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Lord Hosk
Posts: 6587
Joined: 07 Dec 2011, 08:30
First Video: Checkpoint: Into the breach
Location: Half and inch below the knuckle of the ring finger. MI

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Lord Hosk » 12 Jun 2014, 08:13

So the issue is that Mtgo mislabels the "before combat step priory" as "main phase for the non active player"?

So I intended to cast in this before you move to combat step priority which does exist, because wizards has chosen to put the wording wrong I used the wrong wording.

I understood that there was a step where I could cast instants and he could not do anything but respond with his own instants, which there is, but its not called what I called it.

Image

Because if I did that on MTGO on my stop at the arrow, he couldnt have responded with an equip.
Beware Bering Crystal Bears, Bearing Crystals. (Especially if the crystals they are bearing are, themselves, Bering Crystal Bears.) -Old, Stupid Proverb

[–]Graham_LRR
You hear that Khoo? We're almost better than the comic!
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7343
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 12 Jun 2014, 13:41

You can't respond to anything with an equip ability, unless you have Leonin Shikari out, which is what your argument was based on. Since equip is only at sorcery speed, you can only equip during your Main phases when the stack is clear and you have priority.

The step where you can cast instants and he can respond with instants is the "Begin Combat" step. That's the step between his Main Phase and him declaring attackers in his "Declare Attackers" phase. That's when you should've played Griptide, not during the end of his Main Phase. I don't see a MtGO "mislabel" here.

If you do something on his Main Phase and the stack clears, he gets priority again and it's still his Main Phase. So what happened was that you Griptided, it resolved, the stack was cleared, he got priority, and sorcery-speed equipped onto his creature, and then you got priority again for the new stack.

Your arrow is pointing to YOUR main phase, though, not his. Is that what you meant to point at? I assume you actually meant to point at the top bar instead.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Kapol » 12 Jun 2014, 14:05

I think the problem here is that MTGO works differently than paper Magic. I'm not sure if MTGO has a thing where, once priority is passed to the non-active player, it basically says 'sorcery-speed items can no longer be cast' in it's programming. So if that is the case, then that is technically wrong. But I haven't played enough with the system (or tried to do anything like that main phase that I remember) to be sure if that's something that actually happens. It just seems like MTGO might be programmed in a way where the 'end of phase' (or when priority is passed by the active player without casting anything with nothing on the stack) creates a situation where the normal main phase rules don't apply due to the coding.
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby korvys » 12 Jun 2014, 14:30

Hosk, the White arrows on the bottom are places you want to stop in your turn (in this case, you main phase, because you probably want to play things), and the ones on the top are places you want to stop in their turn (so not during the main phase, but during what is labeled the "Begin Combat" step).

The begin combat step is where you would want to cast things like griptide, and is the first place you stop on your opponent's turn, by default. I can see how easy it would be to assume you were still in the main phase, given that MTGO basically gives you the option to stop straight after he has played things.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Duckay
Posts: 3706
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 00:57
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: Central Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Duckay » 12 Jun 2014, 15:24

For Kapol's benefit; it isn't a Magic Online problem. The main phase works as intended. If you want to do something and only want your opponent able to act at instant speed, you must do it in the step labelled "Begin combat" after the main phase.
User avatar
Evil Smurf
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 20:02
First Video: I can't remember, it was on the escapist
Location: Melbourne

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Evil Smurf » 15 Jun 2014, 17:59

I started playing magic in 2011, and as a result some of my favourite cards are no longer legal in standard, so I've had to turn to the modern format.
User avatar
tamaness
Posts: 2673
Joined: 17 Oct 2008, 03:44
First Video: LRReview: Desert Bus
Location: Stuck between a rock and a hard place
Contact:

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby tamaness » 16 Jun 2014, 06:25

Modern pisses me off because fetchlands. It's super-fun except for hunting those bastards down.
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby korvys » 16 Jun 2014, 15:24

My Modern deck (Borderpost Restore Balance) has no fetch lands, and only cost me $50. It also has the advantage of no-one knowing what you're doing. Sometimes even once you do it.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
tamaness
Posts: 2673
Joined: 17 Oct 2008, 03:44
First Video: LRReview: Desert Bus
Location: Stuck between a rock and a hard place
Contact:

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby tamaness » 16 Jun 2014, 16:02

Yeah, I am running a (bad) Pod variant. I'm running six fetches (borrowed) in it right now. I've got the makings of a decent Death & Taxes in my binder, though.
User avatar
VectorZero
Posts: 182
Joined: 17 Nov 2013, 04:38
First Video: Unskippable: Lost Planet

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby VectorZero » 18 Jun 2014, 05:37

My opponent tapped out for morphling, and I tapped five lands for aftershock.

>.<
User avatar
Duckay
Posts: 3706
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 00:57
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: Central Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Duckay » 24 Jun 2014, 21:48

Tried to draft on magic online... Lost connection twice during the draft and once during deck building. Ended up in 3-colour "stuff".
User avatar
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Kapol » 25 Jul 2014, 22:33

The flood. It's real. Managed to get 13 out of 17 lands within the first half of my deck. Got all the way down to 12 cards in deck, two of which were lands, before I finally lost. Had 3 more removal spells for his one threat in my deck, and I couldn't get them. Look at my next draw after I lose...

land. *facepalm*

For the record, here's 5 cards left in my 12 card deck that would have basically won me the game at that point:

2 Covenant of Blood, 1 Flesh to Dust, 1 Kird Chieftain, and 1 Nightfire Giant. Any one of those would have basically stopped my opponent dead.
RadioshackRaider
Posts: 236
Joined: 01 Aug 2014, 18:37
First Video: Friday Nights: Untap
Location: Scotland

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby RadioshackRaider » 01 Aug 2014, 18:44

The only time I've ever had a bad time playing MTG was at the JOU Game Day. My LGS is a pretty casual environment. Hell, our judge is the guy who played only basic lands at GP Manchester. You can imagine my annoyance when a bunch of people showed up with top tier decks just so they could get wins. It's just the smugness of going to a fairly small and casual environment, just to win that annoys me. I'm lucky that my LGS doesn't host constructed events aside from the Game Day, otherwise stuff like this would happen much more often.
User avatar
jkefka
Posts: 244
Joined: 28 Oct 2013, 07:08
First Video: Does Desert Bus count? Feed dump if not

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby jkefka » 03 Aug 2014, 10:38

Flooded or got mana screwed in, I counted, six consecutive MTGO games and total eight out of ten yesterday. :randomness:
When the upkeep takes longer than the main phase, I know I've done my job well.
User avatar
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Kapol » 03 Aug 2014, 15:46

At FNM last weekend, my first game was against an obnoxious brat of a kid. He kept complaining over and over about how he had a headache, and that's why he drafted badly. He complained when I dropped my bomb (the new Avacyn) and proceeded to kill him through an empty board. Like... it'd be one thing if it seemed like he was just making mistakes. But I'm confident he was playing more than 40 cards, he was playing multiples of bad cards (he was playing at least 2 of the 2-drop artifact with 4,T: Tap a creature), and was generally being really whiny and obnoxious. I don't mind newer players. I mind when they complain the entire match.
User avatar
Duckay
Posts: 3706
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 00:57
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: Central Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Duckay » 05 Aug 2014, 20:48

Background to start with...

A few months ago, something changed with the way I play Magic. I swear I woke up one morning as a nuts and bolts Spike. Turns out a few of my friends did too so we're putting together a team to help one another get better. So we've been sitting down with one another and talking about our strengths and our weaknesses and how we can improve our Magic game.

With all this, though, I have a problem. I realise that I am really bad at noticing my own strengths. My weaknesses I am overwhelmingly aware of, but I find it difficult to sit down with other people and discuss their weaknesses when I feel as though my Magic game is nothing but weaknesses. It also makes it difficult to hear feedback because anything positive reads as insincere to me.

Does that make sense? Does anyone know any strategies to work on that?
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby korvys » 05 Aug 2014, 21:03

I don't think that's a Magic specific problem: Impostor syndrome
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Duckay
Posts: 3706
Joined: 05 Jun 2011, 00:57
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: Central Coast, Australia

Re: The Magic Venting Thread

Postby Duckay » 06 Aug 2014, 04:31

I suppose it's just the place where it's most apparent to me is when playing Magic. The industry I work with is not structured in such a way that I particularly notice it affecting me there. You are probably right that it carries into elsewhere in my life, though.

Return to “Magic: The Gathering”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest